ES Xeon Discussion

[DHamov]

what in tarnation is this fake news, you can get any Gigabyte motherboard you want for MSRP right now https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=50001314 100161257 8000&Manufactory=1314

Sorry but thats an MD72 not MS73. On Newegg all MS73 are sold out, but after seconds or so, the sold out disappears any you can request a quote, but they are not in stock. And try to find one in Europe, its even more difficult. I dont know the market, good enough to know if this is normal, or different as usual. But i have heard before that people are worried about the Taiwan situation, and decided to buy new systems now before its to late.

I'm looking to start with 256 GB RAM with my build. With an 8 slot board, probably 4x64GB to start and keep some spare for expansion. I could also go 8x32GB and get the full 8 channels with no flexibility left for expansion. Is there a significant real-life noticeable difference between 4 channels and 8 channels?

Ofcourse Everything depends on workload, but i still think its a good question.
Because its really not clear what performance you get before you buy it and test it. I am also not conclusive about 8 Channel board or 4 Channel board. Also because the specs of the cpu's say that memory speed goes down from 4800 to 4400 if 2 dimms per channel are used. I think it would be very usefull, if there were some more systematic benchmarks for different classes of workloads, with different memory populations, to get a rough idea about performance. The same applies to Rx4 or Rx8 memory performance in practice, i could not find any useful numbers.

 

[bayleyw]

Sorry but thats an MD72 not MS73. On Newegg all MS73 are sold out, but after seconds or so, the sold out disappears any you can request a quote, but they are not in stock. And try to find one in Europe, its even more difficult. I dont know the market, good enough to know if this is normal, or different as usual. But i have heard before that people are worried about the Taiwan situation, and decided to buy new systems now before its to late.

Fair enough, the 2S version seems OOS everywhere. Still not believing its a conspiracy though...seems like regular out of stock, I've seen similar stock issues from Asrock rack before where entire products would go out of stock for a few months at a time, then reappear.

 

[scouzi]

Ofcourse Everything depends on workload, but i still think its a good question.
Because its really not clear what performance you get before you buy it and test it. I am also not conclusive about 8 Channel board or 4 Channel board. Also because the specs of the cpu's say that memory speed goes down from 4800 to 4400 if 2 dimms per channel are used. I think it would be very usefull, if there were some more systematic benchmarks for different classes of workloads, with different memory populations, to get a rough idea about performance. The same applies to Rx4 or Rx8 memory performance in practice, i could not find any useful numbers.

In my case, with the MS03-CE0 I (back) ordered, it's an 8 memory slot board. You can't get more than 1 DPC. It's a matter of running with all the slots filled with smaller DIMMS or half filled with larger ones. The cost difference of the 2 configs is not significant.

 

[DHamov]

In my case, with the MS03-CE0 I (back) ordered, it's an 8 memory slot board. You can't get more than 1 DPC. It's a matter of running with all the slots filled with smaller DIMMS or half-filled with larger ones. The cost difference of the 2 configs is not significant.

I understand that that 8 channels are 1DPC, but i misunderstood that you already ordered the 8 channel board. I am mentioned the 2DPC cpu speed decrease because the 'advantage' of the 4-channel 2 DPC board is said to be more upgradeable, but an upgrade from 4 dim to 8 dim will detriment speeds, even its only 10%. What still is not clear to me if besides the difference in cost, if there is ever any technical advantage of the 4-channel workstation board vs the 8-channel server boards if the cpu is 8-channel. Is by design the bandwidth of the 4-channel board not always limited to half the bandwidth of the 8-channel? I mean would running 4 DIMMs in the 4-channel board, give the same/similar performance, as the 4 DIMMs in the 8-channel board? Is there any memory configuration in which the 4-channel board has advantages?

 

[DHamov]

since MS73 are hard to get, is there any chance that the Asus dual socket board Z13PE-D16 could support ES cpu's?
That board actually has 2x350W support.

 

[RolloZ170]

--

Is by design the bandwidth of the 4-channel board not always limited to half the bandwidth of the 8-channel? I mean would running 4 DIMMs in the 4-channel board, give the same/similar performance, as the 4 DIMMs in the 8-channel board? Is there any memory configuration in which the 4-channel board has advantages?

4 channel = cheaper, Xeon W?240xx support only 4 channels, enough/good for lower core counts,
with 4 mem.channels 1/4 of the core count have only single channel mem.bandwidth. with low latency.

 

[RolloZ170]

since MS73 are hard to get, is there any chance that the Asus dual socket board Z13PE-D16 could support ES cpu's?
That board actually has 2x350W support.

not D0 ES2, D0 microcode is missing. E0(and up) should be fine.

 

[DHamov]

not D0 ES2, D0 microcode is missing. E0(and up) should be fine.

Thanks, o I wish i asked this one day before... i just ordered QYFS, but now i see that Q0KG E0 is just a bit more expensive. Maybe i can still change it. But strange that E0 should work, on the ASUS dual socket board, while a while ago you wrote : 'stepping E0 was tested, doesn't POST on W790 Ace...' for the single socket board. And for D0, things are the opposite (works at single socket w790, not on dual socket). Quite a puzzle all of this, at least to me.

 

[Kizune]

Thanks, o I wish i asked this one day before... i just ordered QYFS, but now i see that Q0KG E0 is just a bit more expensive. Maybe i can still change it. But strange that E0 should work, on the ASUS dual socket board, while a while ago you wrote : 'stepping E0 was tested, doesn't POST on W790 Ace...' for the single socket board. And for D0, things are the opposite (works at single socket w790, not on dual socket). Quite a puzzle all of this, at least to me.

ASUS Z13PE-D16 is built on a server chipset C741, the W790 is built on a different chipset - W790 (hence the board name). It is not just a cutdown version of the dual socket board, they have different sets of features (like overcloaking support on W790) and very different BIOS. W790 does not work with production like steppings (meaning when CPU identifies itself as Xeon Platinum 84xx rather than the earlier Genuine Intel 0000%@). And the BIOS on C741 often has support for such earlier steppings removed so they only work with production like late steppings.

 

[RolloZ170]

strange that E0 should work, on the ASUS dual socket board, while a while ago you wrote : 'stepping E0 was tested, doesn't POST on W790 Ace...' for the single socket board. And for D0, things are the opposite (works at single socket w790, not on dual socket). Quite a puzzle all of this, at least to me.

ASUS Z13PE-D16 (C741) supports SPR-SP not SPR-WS
i talk about SPR-SP stepping E0 ES not WS parts.
ASUS W790 (Ace/SAGE) (W790 chipset) supports officialy only SPR-WS, but as a strange exception SPR-SP D0 ES.

we know Intel stopped Xeon support on desktop/HEDT after X99/C612.
but QLRX (7900X / W-2155 ES B0 not prod. stepping) work with C422 and some X299 boards.

 

[RolloZ170]

W790 does not work with production like steppings (meaning when CPU identifies itself as Xeon Platinum 84xx rather than the earlier Genuine Intel 0000%@)

not fully correct. nothing insinde looks at brand strings, there are working parts with "0000%@"
but they are SPR-WS ES steppings E0 and up.

 

[RolloZ170]

since MS73 are hard to get, is there any chance that the Asus dual socket board Z13PE-D16 could support ES cpu's?

checked some other BIOS but 0301 is first release of Z13PE-D16 and already supports Emerald Rapids.

Z13PP-D32 supports D0 ES(806f3) in first BIOS 0401
but later D0 ES(806f3) MCU is removed and added MCU for SPR-HBM and EMR-SP(Emerald Rapids)

this can not caused by limited space in BIOS, Gigabyte managed to hold all MCUs in they're C741 BIOS.

 

[DHamov]

checked some other BIOS but 0301 is first release of Z13PE-D16 and already supports Emerald Rapids.

Z13PP-D32 supports D0 ES(806f3) in first BIOS 0401
but later D0 ES(806f3) MCU is removed and added MCU for SPR-HBM and EMR-SP(Emerald Rapids)

Thanks for checking the Asus boards with old bios. Even if it works The z13PP-D32 looks very scary to me and i need pcie and sort of normal shape to find a case with high reasonable silent coolers.

ASUS Z13PE-D16 (C741) supports SPR-SP not SPR-WS
i talk about SPR-SP stepping E0 ES not WS parts.
ASUS W790 (Ace/SAGE) (W790 chipset) supports officialy only SPR-WS, but as a strange exception SPR-SP D0 ES.

Interesting so if i understood it correctly ASUS W790 would also not support any official normal SPR-WS -> SPR-SP cpu's. (EDIT my mistake)

About Q0KG E0, i read in this forum that its E0. But in the screen shot of seller...

...the stepping part seems blank. How to recognize what are E0 steppings? Do they start Q0.., or is it the 4?

The sellers mentions compatible with GIGABYTE. But are for Q0KG (or other E0 SPR-SP) , are besides Asus and GIGABYTE other dual socket or C741 boards from brands like Supermicro, Asrock known to be working or not working?
The ASRock SP2C741D16X-2T would be quite amazing 7 pcie slots on dual socket wow.

 

[RolloZ170]

About Q0KG E0, i read in this forum that its E0. But in the screen shot of seller...

...the stepping part seems blank. How to recognize what are E0 steppings? Do they start Q0.., or is it the 4?

correct, cpuid 806F4 is stepping E0

 

[RolloZ170]

The sellers mentions compatible with GIGABYTE. But are for Q0KG (or other E0 SPR-SP) , are besides Asus and GIGABYTE other dual socket or C741 boards from brands like Supermicro, Asrock known to be working or not working?
The ASRock SP2C741D16X-2T would be quite amazing 7 pcie slots on dual socket wow.

currently all C741 boards use a 806F8 MCU container supporting the following steppings:
806F4, "E0/S1"
806F5, "E2/B1"
806F6, "E3/S2"
806F7, "E4/S2"
806F8, "E5/S3/B3"

 

[Kizune]

not fully correct. nothing insinde looks at brand strings, there are working parts with "0000%@"
but they are SPR-WS ES steppings E0 and up.

I’m not saying it does. It’s just my way to figure out the earlier generations of engineering samples. Ones who identify themselves as a proper model usually pretty stable and have all the model specific features enabled. And this generation it is just a coincidence that WS motherboards accept earlier versions but do not accept latest ones. Fun fact - even Intel XTU software is tricked by that engineering sample so it starts and works with D0 SPR-SP as if it was Xeon W without X - meaning multiplier is locked. But still - that is probably the first time I see XTU not complaining about unsupported CPU and exiting right away.

 

[RolloZ170]

And this generation it is just a coincidence that WS motherboards accept earlier versions but do not accept latest ones.

after stepping D0, intel reworked the SPR silicon. maybe it is very easy, E0 and up SPR-SP doesn't like DMI4,
D0 ES2 support DMI4, but later intel decided to give C741 only DMI3.

Intel Emerald Rapids Backtracks on Chiplets – Design, Performance & Cost

Competitive Analysis Considerations, Sapphire Rapids Stealthy Redesign

www.semianalysis.com

 

[DHamov]

you don't understand.
where have i sayd that ?

Sorry my typing mistake, all these abbreviations are still new and not in my fingers.
It good to know that that W790 does not support SPR-SP cpu's.
But for example 8461V is 'scalable' but its only single socket, and also not WS
So if i understand correctly in asus w790 the d0 stepping of these SPR-SP 44xx, 64xx and 84xx cpu's are strangely enough supported but later steppings even official versions are not supported in Asus w790.

currently all C741 boards use a 806F8 MCU container supporting the following steppings:
806F4, "E0/S1"
806F5, "E2/B1"
806F6, "E3/S2"
806F7, "E4/S2"
806F8, "E5/S3/B3"

Does this mean that for these steppings one can buy any C741 board, and as long as one does not update the bios, these steppings are supported? Sorry i dont understand what a 806F8 MCU container, is and google was not very helpful.

 

[RolloZ170]

It good to know that that W790 does not support SPR-SP cpu's.
But for example 8461V is 'scalable' but its only single socket, and also not WS

HWinfo
scalable: no (don't ask)
wayness: 1S
and of course don't work on ASUS W790

So if i understand correctly in asus w790 the d0 stepping of these SPR-SP 44xx, 64xx and 84xx cpu's are strangely enough supported but later steppings even official versions are not supported in Asus w790.

yes, but i doubt it is the stepping only. W790 likes to run DMI4 with the CPU, D0 ES can, but stepping E0 and later not.
originaly intel reported for both C741&W790 DMI4, but changed C741/SPR-SP to DMI3 late.

Does this mean that for these steppings one can buy any C741 board, and as long as one does not update the bios, these steppings are supported?

i dont understand what a 806F8 MCU container, is and google was not very helpful.

i'll try to explain:
you see a microcode in the BIOS, 806F8, but hey ? stepping E3 CPU-ID is 806F6, why does it work ?

here is the microcode 806F8 platform Type 87
note "F8 06 08 00" and "05 00 00 00" is the intel x86 little endian format of 0x000806F8 and 0x00000005
HxD shows extended header of mcu.
the 05 00 00 00 is the count of entries.
then 5 supported cpuid's of this microcode.
F8 06 08 00
F7 06 08 00
F6 06 08 00 stepping E3
F5 06 08 00
F4 06 08 00

UEFITool can decode this too.

and MCE.py ( MCExtractor, most possible latest version )

 

[tesla100]

Thanks, o I wish i asked this one day before... i just ordered QYFS, but now i see that Q0KG E0 is just a bit more expensive. Maybe i can still change it. But strange that E0 should work, on the ASUS dual socket board, while a while ago you wrote : 'stepping E0 was tested, doesn't POST on W790 Ace...' for the single socket board. And for D0, things are the opposite (works at single socket w790, not on dual socket). Quite a puzzle all of this, at least to me.

Hi, can I ask where you ordered it and for how much? Thanks