Qotom Denverton fanless system with 4 SFP+

[blunden]

It would be interesting to see how the heatsink differs from the previous model.

Yeah, me too. From looking at the pictures, it looks like the heatsink part might have a bit more mass, but the surface area seems like it might be lower (fewer fins, but longer). The angled heat sink fins might make warm air rising slightly more difficult while more easily keeping dust out, but I'm certainly no thermal engineer.

They might simply be manufacturing both models simultaneously to provide options for their business customers. Their chassis are modular after all, with the front and back plates being the part that's customized for each motherboard model.

Either way, it might be good to know that it exists in case someone has a hard time finding the original one in the future.

 

[Alex Rosenberg]

Just got one of these boxes direct from Qotom's website.

Two oddities:

1. The 2666MHz ECC SODIMMs I installed are showing as the DDR4 default of 2133 in the BIOS and in memtest86. I have 2400 enabled and I don't see any XMP options. This CPU is supposed to support 2400, so how do I get it to do so?

2. This box, Q20352G9, has an "Intel Atom C3908" in it. There's no mention of this model on Intel's site, except an incidental mention in one document. Mouser does sell them, but not too many parts vendors do. It's a 16 core version at 2.0GHz. Any ideas why Intel has disavowed this model? Is there anything specific about it I should know? (e.g. it was made for a specific customer or some feature is fused off for yield or it has some errata that was unsurmountable?)

 

[HeneryH]

What benchmark test do you use and how to you monitor on-die temperatures? Thank you.

Did some googling...

In one window:

sudo apt-get install sysbench
sysbench --threads="$(nproc)" --time=60 cpu run

In another window:

sudo apt-get install lm-sensors
sudo sensors-detect # I let it auto edit the files
sudo /etc/init.d/kmod start
watch -n 3 sensors

a 60 sec benchmark gave me this:

Package id 0:  +48.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 2:        +45.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 3:        +45.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 4:        +44.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 5:        +44.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 6:        +45.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 7:        +45.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 8:        +45.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 9:        +45.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 12:       +46.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 13:       +46.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 14:       +46.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)
Core 15:       +46.0°C  (high = +78.0°C, crit = +98.0°C)

Prime numbers limit: 10000

Initializing worker threads...

Threads started!

CPU speed:
    events per second: 12450.73

General statistics:
    total time:                          60.0009s
    total number of events:              747079

Latency (ms):
         min:                                    0.96
         avg:                                    0.96
         max:                                    9.07
         95th percentile:                        0.97
         sum:                               719788.78

Threads fairness:
    events (avg/stddev):           62256.5833/29.18
    execution time (avg/stddev):   59.9824/0.00

Seems safe enough that I won't bother re-pasting the thermal paste. Fair?

 

[RomanB]

So I've tried bare metal OPNsense/pfSense on the C3808 and the best I could manage for moving data from my desktop to my server was ~250MB/s on the 10Gbps connection, I tried a DAC and optical... usually only ~100 errors per iperf3 test. If you do the -P 4 on iperf 3 or greater you can get a SUM of 9.5Gbps. The story I've pieced together is BSD is 1 session = 1 CPU core, and 2.5Gbps is what each denverton core can handle (at least under BSD).
Virtualization in Proxmox was worse.... I was checking if network card drivers were at fault.

Solution for now was OpenWRT x64. Transfers are the full 9.5Gbps between PC's, it has unbound/wire-guard/VLAN's etc.

Yes, performance on BSD seems much worse than on Linux. It performs well for me on VyOS as well as a 10 Gbps router.

So that means OPNsense/pfSense wouldn't perform much better on N100/N305 boxes like some Topton/CWWK models?

There are far better/cheaper minipcs for nomal home/pro-home use.. imo speaking as owner of this Qotom

I know it's late, but which ones? Similarly priced, with at least 5 of 2.5G ports? And how they are far better?
I am looking for a router/firewall solution. Also would be nice to have some sort of ability to add sata drive and make it a file storage server, but not required. Don't really care about 5/10gb networking.
So far I only see N100/N305 boxes from Topton/CWWK, but I almost got crazy trying differentiate between some of their products. Some boxes are identical in specs but the cases are different and good luck finding out if case is the only thing that is different and which version is newer.
Then there are these Qotom boxes which for some reason look somewhat more appealing to me.
And... That's about it. What else is out there that is much better?

 

[blunden]

So that means OPNsense/pfSense wouldn't perform much better on N100/N305 boxes like some Topton/CWWK models?

I don't know to be honest. It might simply be a tuning issue for the people here who had performance issues with it recently on BSD recently, performance issues that they couldn't reproduce on Linux.

I know it's late, but which ones? Similarly priced, with at least 5 of 2.5G ports? And how they are far better?
I am looking for a router/firewall solution. Also would be nice to have some sort of ability to add sata drive and make it a file storage server, but not required. Don't really care about 5/10gb networking.
So far I only see N100/N305 boxes from Topton/CWWK, but I almost got crazy trying differentiate between some of their products. Some boxes are identical in specs but the cases are different and good luck finding out if case is the only thing that is different and which version is newer.
Then there are these Qotom boxes which for some reason look somewhat more appealing to me.
And... That's about it. What else is out there that is much better?

I suggest that you read more of the replies from the time to get the context. As a router, this is a good box for up to 10 Gbps (the C3758/C3758R). The much more modern Intel N100 CPU is faster in terms of compute performance, but its very low number of PCI-E 3.0 lanes (9 in total) is a big limitation.

What are your performance requirements?

Qotom has an N100 box too btw. (seemingly without SATA support) that is currently being discussed in the thread below:

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/qotom-q10922h6-fanless-n100-2x10gbe-4x2-5gbe.47026/

 

[RomanB]

What are your performance requirements?

Qotom has an N100 box too btw. (seemingly without SATA support) that is currently being discussed in the thread below:

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/qotom-q10922h6-fanless-n100-2x10gbe-4x2-5gbe.47026/

Nothing special in terms of performance, just to be able to serve as a firewal/router for home network and provide 2.5G (at max really) speeds. Also it would be awesome to install Jellyfin server on it, so maybe proxmox virtualization is required. No need for 10Gbps, but nice if it's there.

The much more modern Intel N100 CPU is faster in terms of compute performance, but its very low number of PCI-E 3.0 lanes (9 in total) is a big limitation.

So that might be a limitation for 5Gbps + networking I guess?

Qotom has an N100 box too btw. (seemingly without SATA support) that is currently being discussed in the thread below:

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/qotom-q10922h6-fanless-n100-2x10gbe-4x2-5gbe.47026/

I've seen that they're selling this one, and it looks really close to what I need. I guess the lack of reviews is the main thing that stopped me from buying it. I was also hoping to put a SATA drive inside, but apparently this one doesn't support that. I'll definitely be following this thread—thanks.

I guess I'll have to choose between the N100 and C3758R Qotom boxes. The N100 is more widely used, and if anything goes wrong, at least it could serve as a mini PC for web browsing. In terms of storage for a file server, I should be able to connect some kind of external enclosure or just install an 8TB NVMe drive, which is sufficient for my needs right now.

I used OpenWrt for one of my projects, and I'm not sure if I liked it—though most of the issues were caused by poor Wi-Fi drivers. I want to try OPNsense; if the C3758R doesn't work well with it, then maybe the N100 will do a better job. Also, the N100 should consume slightly less power.

This box has 10GBase-T (I think that's what they call it), so I can just plug in RJ45 connectors without needing adapters.
Maybe I'll take a risk and order the Qotom N100 box—there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to choose the C3758R.

 

[Barrette]

I am using OPNsense with great success for more than a month on C3758R and with 8Gbit ISP download. Nothing bad to report.

I often get these speeds from my nas connected via DAC to the qotom

Speedtest by Ookla - The Global Broadband Speed Test

Use Speedtest on all your devices with our free desktop and mobile apps.

www.speedtest.net

 

[SlowmoDK]

I know it's late, but which ones? Similarly priced, with at least 5 of 2.5G ports? And how they are far better?
I am looking for a router/firewall solution. Also would be nice to have some sort of ability to add sata drive and make it a file storage server, but not required. Don't really care about 5/10gb networking.
So far I only see N100/N305 boxes from Topton/CWWK, but I almost got crazy trying differentiate between some of their products. Some boxes are identical in specs but the cases are different and good luck finding out if case is the only thing that is different and which version is newer.
Then there are these Qotom boxes which for some reason look somewhat more appealing to me.
And... That's about it. What else is out there that is much better?

Personally I went with 2x CWWK X86 P5 N100 (2x 2.5g). One for Firewall and one for Jellyfin/Plex and Argh stack
I had them combined in 4 port n305 CWWk but sold that for the more flexible 2x n100 solution

Do you really need 5 ports on your firewall? Managed 2.5g switches have gotten very cheap GOGO VLAN

 

[HeneryH]

Anyone having a tough time getting into bios?

The <esc> or <del> key presses at or around the splash screen are either not getting recognized or if I bang away on the keys sometimes it gets into bios but freezes.

I have gotten in before but now I am being really unlucky with my timing.

 

[RomanB]

Personally I went with 2x CWWK X86 P5 N100 (2x 2.5g). One for Firewall and one for Jellyfin/Plex and Argh stack
I had them combined in 4 port n305 CWWk but sold that for the more flexible 2x n100 solution

Do you really need 5 ports on your firewall? Managed 2.5g switches have gotten very cheap GOGO VLAN

Paying $300 for a dedicated router box, then needing to attach another box with its own power supply (and ~10W consumption) just to get two Ethernet ports which are lacking in my super-router? No thanks—I’m getting at least five ports.

 

[blunden]

Nothing special in terms of performance, just to be able to serve as a firewal/router for home network and provide 2.5G (at max really) speeds. Also it would be awesome to install Jellyfin server on it, so maybe proxmox virtualization is required. No need for 10Gbps, but nice if it's there.

It's overpowered for just 2.5 Gbps, so that's not a problem. Like I said in the other thread, the GPU in the N100 could be useful for video encoding and decoding if you need that for Jellyfin.

So that might be a limitation for 5Gbps + networking I guess?

More for 10 Gbps networking.

I used OpenWrt for one of my projects, and I'm not sure if I liked it—though most of the issues were caused by poor Wi-Fi drivers. I want to try OPNsense; if the C3758R doesn't work well with it, then maybe the N100 will do a better job. Also, the N100 should consume slightly less power.

If you don't like OpenWrt, there are also projects like IPFire (never tried it) or VyOS that I run on mine.

This box has 10GBase-T (I think that's what they call it), so I can just plug in RJ45 connectors without needing adapters.
Maybe I'll take a risk and order the Qotom N100 box—there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to choose the C3758R.

The compelling reason to choose the C3758R is that it's an SoC meant for networking with 4 built-in 10 Gbps NICs (SFP+ which lots of people like) as well as features such as QAT. It's pretty much a Netgate 8200 for a lot less.

As a Proxmox host and a Jellyfin host, the N100 with its GPU and faster CPU performance is probably a better fit though.

 

[kng42]

I am using OPNsense with great success for more than a month on C3758R and with 8Gbit ISP download. Nothing bad to report.

I often get these speeds from my nas connected via DAC to the qotom

Speedtest by Ookla - The Global Broadband Speed Test

Use Speedtest on all your devices with our free desktop and mobile apps.

www.speedtest.net

I would be interested to know what your

I am using OPNsense with great success for more than a month on C3758R and with 8Gbit ISP download. Nothing bad to report.

I often get these speeds from my nas connected via DAC to the qotom

Speedtest by Ookla - The Global Broadband Speed Test

Use Speedtest on all your devices with our free desktop and mobile apps.

www.speedtest.net

I'm curious about your setup and configuration? I could only reduce my throughput by adjusting the tunables.

 

[Barrette]

Can you be more precise?

 

[Tismo]

Thanks for the link that guide section. I overlooked it 'cause we have pre-flashed units.

Well "seem" is doing some work in my statement. I can use the Ethernet LEDs to see it makes it through the boot process. When I made my original post, I believe the LEDs would settle to solid on. Now, one of the LEDs settle to three flashes pause and repeat. When I made my original post, I was then able to see a new green interface under Interfaces-Overview and could look at the details and see it was recognized by OPNsense. However, I'm not seeing that now that went to check again. Just all red interfaces. So something has changed for me. Perhaps this is part if the instability you are experiencing.

Did you ever get it working. I have the same issue as you. I have the Mini PC Q20331G9 1U

 

[Alex Rosenberg]

Just got one of these boxes direct from Qotom's website.

Two oddities:

1. The 2666MHz ECC SODIMMs I installed are showing as the DDR4 default of 2133 in the BIOS and in memtest86. I have 2400 enabled and I don't see any XMP options. This CPU is supposed to support 2400, so how do I get it to do so?

2. This box, Q20352G9, has an "Intel Atom C3908" in it. There's no mention of this model on Intel's site, except an incidental mention in one document. Mouser does sell them, but not too many parts vendors do. It's a 16 core version at 2.0GHz. Any ideas why Intel has disavowed this model? Is there anything specific about it I should know? (e.g. it was made for a specific customer or some feature is fused off for yield or it has some errata that was unsurmountable?)

Looking at Intel's datasheet for the C3000-series chips, which doesn't have this mystery C3908 on it, it looks like this generation of Denverton is limited to 2133Mhz. Qotom's specs for these boxes claiming 2400 is just wrong.

 

[therealsimontemplar]

I want to try OPNsense; if the C3758R doesn't work well with it, then maybe the N100 will do a better job.

The q20331g9 with the C3758R will work fine with OPNsense. I moved from PFsense a few years ago as their free offering turned into a hot mess with drivers and such, but that aside, OPNsense is great. I think this forum is the only place in the world I saw anyone with a straight face say that a linux offering has better networking than freebsd.

FWIW I'm pushing the better part of 10gb through my c3758r with opnsense from my lan to my storage network for my iscsi and nfs to my hypervisors, and my internet is 1g about a third of which is often used by VPN connections. The denverton with opnsense is solid.

 

[blunden]

The q20331g9 with the C3758R will work fine with OPNsense. I moved from PFsense a few years ago as their free offering turned into a hot mess with drivers and such, but that aside, OPNsense is great. I think this forum is the only place in the world I saw anyone with a straight face say that a linux offering has better networking than freebsd.

The claims that FreeBSD is faster in terms of networking generally don't come with much proof in terms of benchmarks (if they do, those benchmarks are normally ancient), usually just "something something Netflix!". It's basically cited as gospel.

On the other hand, almost all focus by the device makers is on Linux so all the hardware and software offloading features as well as major developments such as VPP etc. end up there first. Even traditional BSD networking companies like Juniper have Linux based flavors of their OS:es now.

A use case where we know that BSD based OS:es have been shown to significantly underperform in terms of network performance is virtualized in KVM on something like Proxmox. That's a pretty common use case on here after all.

Regardless, my intention with mentioning that it might be worth trying Linux if one runs into performance issues with their BSD installation was merely to highlight that other people in this thread had "solved" their problem that way. That's why I also mentioned that it could be caused by incorrect or missing tuning.

 

[hanetzer]

I got a motherboard PDF from Qotom, and have a non-fuzzy pinout now to clarify the headers a little better.

Mind sharing the PDF? I got one of these recently and wanna see about porting coreboot to it. The more docs I get the better.

 

[kng42]

Can you be more precise?

Not sure what happened there. I was not able to get full speed out of the 10Gb interfaces on opnsense. The most I could transfer was ~2.5Gb using 2 different types of SFP cables between 2 local machines on a bare metal install. I had to switch to linux to get full speed. I was wondering if there was a setting I missed.

 

[Barrette]

Not sure what happened there. I was not able to get full speed out of the 10Gb interfaces on opnsense. The most I could transfer was ~2.5Gb using 2 different types of SFP cables between 2 local machines on a bare metal install. I had to switch to linux to get full speed. I was wondering if there was a setting I missed.

The only thing I configured is to select QAT for hardware acceleration, but this is more for speeding encrypted traffic like IPsec.

Maybe the local machines were 2.5?