So i'm here to research Enterprise-class storage up to 300TB :)

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Blinky 42

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Having done the same type of thing over the years for large data, audio and video projects the number that will impact your costs significantly is your working set size. Assuming you are going to copy everything to tape for backup and archive, how big a pool of content do you need online for a specific project? If you want to really control costs then I would put some bounds on that and break it up into a few logical projects to have the costs spread out. You may have done that to come up with the 300TB number, if that is the case then
you need to be prepared to spend $12-15k bare minimum for ~45x 8TB drives (current sweet spot $/TB) and ebay bits to build up a server before spending $ on the LTO side

Off the top of my head I would consider:
  • Offload/ingest speed - how much video do you shoot per day on a multi-day project and compare that to your pool of media for the cameras. Are you moving video to intermediate drives in the field or bringing all the SSD's back to home base and offloading everything end of day? For a multi-day shoot you would need to be able to get back to the office and offload all the video to the server to free up for tomorrow in a sane amount of time (overnight if someone is willing to sit there or you can plug in a few dozen external drives to churn overnight), or a few hours if you are going to do it yourself and still have some time to sleep for the next day. The LTO transfer should be able to churn in the background while you are in the field, but you need have enough disk space to buffer the video pool waiting to be dumped to LTO
  • Working set size while editing a project, including all the inputs + intermediate files and various encoding of the output files
  • Archive indexes + low res samples for context + full tape catalogue for your backup software (Personally I would want to be able to see stills from key scenes or low-res video samples of items in the library in addition to a robust naming scheme so I can get the exact tape I need for something vs restoring all the tapes for a project and then slogging through that)
  • Redundancy + tolerance of data loss. You will probably start small here and grow as budget allows, but bare minimum of being able dump all source content to multiple tapes to keep a set offsite, and have enough tape head time to verify everything you write I would think you want to start with
  • What setup you need in the field? Do you want to do offload from SSD's to a pair of small servers stocked with 10TB drives in the field and have them taken back to the shop for the rest? A pair workstation sized boxes with 20TB of raid1 raw storage could stash 16-20h+ of content to keep the amount of flash you need to buy/rent under control. Add in some 40G networking so you can offload on both boxes at once and mirror to the other in real time, then you have a fast video server right there to review footage in the field
You can split those up into different physical servers to get the ball rolling and then build up form there with a robust 40Gb+ network between the servers and build up your shared central video server pool over time but focus on the offload and robust LTO archive management now. As you grow to more complex shoots with more video per day add more offload server setups into the mix for example. If done right, those servers work for offload when you are shooting then can serve up part of the editing pool while you are in that phase.

If you are the only IT/hardware guy in the group, and you want to do something other than be sysadmin for this setup all the time, spending $ on better solutions at the start saves your time maintaining the setup down the road. The cameras, lenses, media, lighting, sound etc all cost a decent amount, even if you are renting it. Don't skimp too much on the archive side if it is your final work product, it is worth protecting it and spending the $ to avoid needing to re-shoot something, or the loss of profits and reputation for things that can't be shot again.
 

Deslok

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I'll apologize if i'm repeating something after reading through this thread but I'd like to highlight "shucking" hard drives as an option, it's what backblaze did during the drive shortage and patrcik has suggested in several site posts, although i'm personally a fan of the seagate 4tb drives(which patrick tested here) in a 2.5 inch form factor I think from the application you're looking at here the WD mybook 8tb (which patrick tested here) might be the best $/drive option the mybook is based on the HGST helioseal drive and they both offer a lower cost option compared to enterprise SAS drives.
Either one would be an excellent option to populate a JBOD enclosure at 24x4tb or 12x8tb offering similar capacities in raid6 or raidz2 and roughly the same cost, either is managable with your choice of OS(windows server essentials, freenas nas4free BSD whatever you're comfortable with)
I do want to mention data deduplication, it can be a huge savings even for video files, I've seen 10%/TB saved under windows on the low end using fully unique data but projects with multiple clips cut from the same file reduce even better and can quickly scale to 20-30% even with video.
 

Terry Kennedy

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This is great! :) People that treat my post like it's the most normal request in the world. :)
Yup - lots of large storage folks here.
Now that we have a high watermark that will do the job lets see if we can make it a more progressive and scaleable solution that I can get into without a five figure price tag and running another powerline to the server because I don't need all that data online at the beginning. :)
Go take a look at my RAIDzilla 2.5 build. It is 128TB in 3RU. Without data drives, it comes in at $2815 (a year ago, likely less now). The linked article also talks about replication and backup to an LTO library.

Take a close look at the "Ideas for a future RAIDzilla III" section. The changes would be to use a more modern motherboard / CPU, expander backplanes, and probably a NVMe SSD instead of a PCIe add-in SSD.
 
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Patrick

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This is great! :) People that treat my post like it's the most normal request in the world.
This is going to become a much more common request. I sent your post to one of my college roomates who previously worked at a big broadcaster and is now working on a big hyper-scaler's 3D video side. Here was his feedback:
LTO is a good LONG TERM solution for anyone storing for archival purposes.
...
This guy sounds very ambitious, and he knows enough about post production to be successful at whatever it is he's trying to build for the now.

As VR becomes more popular, the gaming and home-grown aspect of producers is also going to grow, much like home made film production.
 
You want a lot and it's not going to be cheap no matter which way you slice it.

You either need to have a very good understanding of hardware and software to take the DIY approach to build this, and then actually know how to manage and run it and have the time to do it as well
Thanks for the wonderful and detailed response btw

Yes it wont be cheap, but I didn't want to paint myself into a corner by setting the sights too low either. 32TB raw storage may actually hold me over for awhile, with an alternate scale out to 64TB hoping to be enough. My biggest plan was to migrate data offline to tape - even if that means loading back from tape whenever it has to be worked on. This is acceptable right now. As inconvenience builds, it justifies a larger server so that more files can simply stay (without being erased to make room) to be worked on. Maybe I wont see 300TB for 5 years - maybe I wont see it EVER. But at least i'm not bottlenecked into a system that can't grow.

I DO have a sysadmin friend who is currently managing a 130TB "home" server with VMware ESX and other fancy things - but I cannot rely on him and did not want to excessively bother him. What I can learn on my own to at least get up to speed and not bug the heck out of him is better. I dont expect to have zero expert help - just to have to get by on less than is ideal. Again plan worst case, but reality hopefully wont be as bleak. :)

My expected dataflow is D2D2T (disk to disk to tape). In the future something like a Synology NAS chassis may simply replace the first part of that - the part of the NAS actually used for "production" work. He uses that, he suggested I consider it seriously if I scale up the workload later especially with multiple users.

However the second disk array mirroring/backing up (and preparing for tape archiving) the first may be a homebrew DIY solution. I am currently considering using SnapRAID for reasons expressed in other threads. As long as there is not expert advice strongly suggesting not to, i'm considering building that first and seeing how well it works. (possibly two boxes, primary NAS and the backup/mirror NAS) When I eventually hit performance bottlenecks i'll have to be looking at something higher performance for the primary NAS.

I am expecting to build a small SnapRAID array to test (around 8TB data) and experiment with, later to grow to 32TB of data if it works well. One advantage being that even if I want to scale up from there - nothing changes. There's no cross migration like into ZFS or out of ZFS, I just add drives, or even upgrade the motherboard, and stick the old drives in the new chassis. It seems to have some very Drobo like functionality basically to add drives or upgrade individual drives in size whenever I want - instead of having to plunk down matched sets for single vdev sets in FreeNAS ZFS and being a PITA to upgrade it. By the time I have 8x drives of 8TB, Seagate may have their new 18-20TB drives out and so starts another round of rolling upgrades that SnapRAID is fine with but FreeNAS throws a conniption of resilvering, rebuilding, migrating, etc. Rebuild times alone and array performance in a degraded state was one thing pushing me towards SnapRAID to begin with.

I will be talking with the SnapRAID guys on their own board and doing my learning on that specific subject there - I am mostly here for divergent and alternative opinions! What else could I do? How else might I set it up? What advantages would that have? Why would I want to do it a different way? This is in part a mental exploration - i'm not trying to burden others with an impossible handholding project. This is what they call in the hot rodder circles "bench racing" right now. Working it out on paper. Trying to see several possible routes to the goal. Mapping out the bottlenecks or problems or barriers each route would encounter. Trying to see if what could be gained (with a different way) is worth alot more money, alot more learning process, or gaining alot more sysadmin friends to help. :) I THINK I have a viable plan already (using SnapRAID, and a D2D2T workflow, at least to start) but in case "its not that easy" or "there are better ways" i'm here to ask for feedback.

For instance later i'd like to play with network based booting/virtualization. That is a totally SEPARATE area of interest, and i'm aware that is not trivial to set up. My #1 priority is just the storage NAS which prepares files to write to tape, until I can get back to them for now. After I seem to have that humming along I will expand my plan - but it has to expand along a predetermined path, steps leading towards a goal. I accept SnapRAID may not work well on a virtualization file server or may not work at all - but I seem to need to know it anyways (for my data process migrating digital video to Ultrium LTO6 tapes) so i'm starting there.

If that all works, the next step will be to experiment with network booting or/and virtualization type needs, and if that works (even if bottlenecked) then step 3 will be trying to raise the performance/eliminate the bottleneck. I'm aware steps 2 and 3 are alot of future learning - i'm only trying to map them on paper right now to have an idea what will be needed later, to decide how much it's worth it. Ie - if I simply MUST go to Infiniband/Fibrechannel for performance in the long run, learning a NAS that will never support that well seems shortsighted, even if the one without is a little easier to use. If SAS drives or Enterprise class drives become a must under some future condition - i'd better know that in advance where and why that happens, and be using a NAS/SAN software that will accomodate.



That all said, can you give me a list of problems and such I might have to be expected to solve so i'm sure I don't have a misunderstanding? And what is "the problem" going to 100TB and up right now? (since from my understanding there are a number of SnapRAID systems over 100TB, so I can know to ask them "how did you solve X problem?") I mean I assumed some of the hurdles were getting enough channels on your drive controller, staggered spinup on the drives to avoid severe surging, running out of RAM in FreeNAS ZFS, etc... I assumed the hurdles occur at different points in different softwares as well, and thus the right choice of software becomes paramount. Whats 'near impossible' in FreeNAS ZFS may be no big deal in Nexstor, or vice versa. That's why this is still a paper exploration.

And if 100TB is such an insurmountable barrier, is there anything wrong with simply having two separate 50TB servers if that's accessible? Or even six of them to make 300TB? Is the biggest Pain In The Rear just having a single storage pool, or everything in one box, and is that achievement even worth it vs just clustering? Having 300TB of network accessible storage is not the same as needing it all in one single box afterall, and if I solve the problems for a 50TB NAS cube I don't see why cloning that cube and sticking another on the network is such a big deal. (which itself might be just i'm not talking precisely enough creating confusion, which is probably my own fault if so, but I considered anyone talking about 300TB in a home to be dealing with an enterprise level problem - not something for normal desktop NAS box discussions... for that matter almost nobody uses Ultrium tape outside the enterprise either it seems)
 
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Perhaps You need to reconsider the name of Your post, as it does not appear that is what you are aiming for, if I read your responses to the experienced folks are supplying responses for an "enterprise class" . Just an observation .....
Well I guess it's more like the Enterprise Class solution comes later. It's not that i'm against spending $400 for an enterprise drive that is $100 in consumer class - when the performance bottleneck/lifespan justifies it.

Right now the NAS is a cheap bit bucket. Even if we only produce seconds per day, the project gets done, just real slowly. Later, if kickstarter money comes in being impressed by the demos that took 10x as long to make as we wanted them get out, we migrate to a production workflow that is far more efficient so we can produce a minute or more of finished footage per day with multiple people working on it. Does that make sense?

Planning the end goal, and steps to get there, without some series of nightmare migrations where we find corrupted data, or a downed hard drive causes weeks of lost work. Plan the end goal - work backwards to the shoestring/bootstrap phase - take note of the clear steps required along the way that brought us there. If the NAS system were using at the end is the same as the beginning that's easier. If there are unavoidable steps, it's important to know when the jump points happen.




Assuming you are going to copy everything to tape for backup and archive, how big a pool of content do you need online for a specific project?

Off the top of my head I would consider:
  • Offload/ingest speed - how much video do you shoot per day on a multi-day project and compare that to your pool of media for the cameras. The LTO transfer should be able to churn in the background while you are in the field, but you need have enough disk space to buffer the video pool waiting to be dumped to LTO
  • Archive indexes + low res samples for context + full tape catalogue for your backup software (Personally I would want to be able to see stills from key scenes or low-res video samples of items in the library in addition to a robust naming scheme so I can get the exact tape I need for something vs restoring all the tapes for a project and then slogging through that)
  • Redundancy + tolerance of data loss. You will probably start small here and grow as budget allows, but bare minimum of being able dump all source content to multiple tapes to keep a set offsite, and have enough tape head time to verify everything you write I would think you want to start with
  • What setup you need in the field? Do you want to do offload from SSD's to a pair of small servers stocked with 10TB drives in the field and have them taken back to the shop for the rest?
You can split those up into different physical servers to get the ball rolling and then build up form there with a robust 40Gb+ network between the servers and build up your shared central video server pool over time but focus on the offload and robust LTO archive management now.


If you are the only IT/hardware guy in the group, and you want to do something other than be sysadmin for this setup all the time, spending $ on better solutions at the start saves your time maintaining the setup down the road.
Thanks for more great info btw. Right now the most flexible part of the workflow is the data coming in. If there is just no way to salvage 8k footage, it has to be saved as 4k to cut the data load in half. Turning what might be a 300TB array into 75TB overnight for instance. Or being aggressive instead of conservative with keeping alternative takes. At each step of the process there are adaptions that can be made.

My worst case estimate was taking up to several terabytes per day with all day multi camera shoots at max resolution raw. Anything that intense would have intermediate drives hooked to laptops. Multi day shoots at max everything werent planned - the "heavy" hardware is studio only. But coming home with another full 3TB drive and it's mirror could well happen.

If I thought it would get worse than this, that makes me prefer the "multiple NAS box" option so that instead of loading to one master server, we can just scale out/load it to multiple in parallel. Days of shooting could result in a few tens of terabytes yes, but nobody can take unlimited time off for a shoot so even multiday shoots were not too worried about going past a week at worst.

Buffering for LTO was the reason for planning D2D2T (front end video goes to one or more primary NAS boxes, which can have their own mirroring set up if the second stage is the bottleneck for tape writing, we might spend a week shooting video then several weeks swapping tapes but that's okay!)

Archive indexes - that's where we start talking multiuser/multicomputer. Setting up one or more transcoding servers to hammer the primary NAS boxes, downconverting them to basically modern workprint reels. We cant directly ingest or edit 4-8k at this stage, but we can transcode, make our cutlists, and show a nice 1080p demo before either seeking more funding, or doing the NLE the slow way offline.

Redundancy is currently planned everything has at least one backup/mirror at all stages in the process. When original raw footage is written to tape, it will be written to RAIT with parity sets set up in SnapRAID. (still researching this, the SnapRAID people suggest it's feasible to do what I figured out) Separate tape set archives of certain steps in the workflow as snapshots so we don't have to do over everything, ie different color grading passes, alternate cuts. Ultrium is supposed to verify on write - you can also do an extra verification pass. Since files written LTFS the extra verification pass should verify I can pull data straight off. Including of the parity tape. If an Ultrium tape breaks or dies, I rebuild the lost data by loading all the tapes of a data set, plus the one or more taped out parity sets to the server, to rebuild the volume - then rewrite out the volume. Eventually the two mirror sets (at least of original source footage) would become three, with one kept totally offsite for disaster recovery. (the parity tapes also assist this mirroring process as even the same three tapes in all data sets could break and I could rebuild it on the server)

Field setup - I haven't gotten that far yet. I'm hoping my thinking so far suggests I have a decent understanding of the total process without big gaps or holes though. :p If I get one good primary NAS setup that I like that's high performance, the idea is I can replicate it across multiple boxes. Say one good 32TB NAS box might become ten (to give me 320TB at home), might become two smaller 15TB boxes in the video van just with 2.5" drives for more durability out there, but the same software... i'm trying to learn once then scale out.

Yes at some point performance and networking bottlenecks become issues - that's why i'm picking brains here, and putting Enterprise Class in the tagline. Because if I do need to get faster and faster, i'm wanting to have a map of where things need to go. On some level "it costs what it costs", on another I have to have several solutions basically fitting minimum possible budget, ideal budget, and at least one compromise level somewhere in between. We then know the figures that at least make the shoot possible in the first place, give us the best workflow/least wasted time and stress, and something in the middle based on the funding we can scare up. If we know we have the use of so and so's haunted house for a 9 day period in October - I can calculate the potential data use based on whether we can actually shoot 8k that long, vs falling back on 4k and such.

And what youre suggesting is exactly what i'm trying to do - first it's the minimum budget "straight to LTO" pipeline, just to make sure that data is backed up and integrity verified. The steps in between are about growing one or more NAS boxes, with varying level of consumer to enterprise class storage, having flexible plans to make the best use of what we have. Preferably using mostly the same software so I know I can handle it and make sure nobody loses any of their data, since by then i'm fully familiar with it, the workflow, and where to gripe that we need the next upgrades.

That last point is what i'm trying to feel out. It's not that I/we cant/wont spend money now/ever, it's about mapping out several ways of solving the problem so that we can make better decisions at the time. Given 10 ways to solve a problem, and 3 ways that i've highlighted as having unique strengths and weaknesses, it's easy to see the one best solution once we get there. Planning a path that only migrates data once maybe is better than four times learning four different systems. Planning something that works almost as well at 300TB as it does at 32TB is convenient to know. Changing our workflow so that it's slightly slower, but cuts the budget in HALF is super useful. Losing a little convenience to save alot of money is part of the game.

We are not super pro because we cant afford to be. What we are trying to do is punch well above our weight. We want to come up with stuff that has the pros go "WTF??!? How did they do that kind of work on THAT budget?!?" because were hoping that will lead to the funding to not have to cut corners anymore. And if and when we get to that point, i'm hoping the final step will be simply migrating all the data we have perhaps on hundreds of LTO tapes, now to some final monolithic server solution.

Working backwards the next to final solution is a still budget constrained "bridge solution" to that, working in steps all the way back to where I am right now trying to pull everyone up by their bootstraps. :) Whether that ends up being one step, or two, or four data migrations for instance - it is what it has to be. But the smoother and cleaner I can make all this work, all without losing any data integrity along the way, or any more lost data from hardware failures - the better I can plan it out for a Single Master Data Plan i'm hoping the more saved time and mental sanity will result.
 
I'll apologize if i'm repeating something after reading through this thread but I'd like to highlight "shucking" hard drives as an option, it's what backblaze did

Either one would be an excellent option to populate a JBOD enclosure at 24x4tb or 12x8tb offering similar capacities in raid6 or raidz2 and roughly the same cost, either is managable with your choice of OS(windows server essentials, freenas nas4free BSD whatever you're comfortable with)

I do want to mention data deduplication, it can be a huge savings even for video files, I've seen 10%/TB saved under windows on the low end using fully unique data but projects with multiple clips cut from the same file reduce even better and can quickly scale to 20-30% even with video.
I've considered it, actually reading Backblaze's stuff is part of what made me start planning bigger than I originally did, with just planning 'scale out' with multiple NAS boxes if required if I hit a wall of "too big for conveniently in one box".

I was wanting to use SnapRAID (potentially under linux but windows isnt out of the question if there's other benefits) unless someone can talk me into a different software. I wont necessarily ONLY use SnapRAID, but it's the first such system I want to learn and apply on a test NAS.

SnapRAID doesn't support deduplication unfortunately, but it does let me fill disks absolutely to the brim without any concern like FreeNAS ZFS seems to want for buffer space. It wont be my ultimate solution, just my first step.


Yup - lots of large storage folks here.

Go take a look at my RAIDzilla 2.5 build. It is 128TB in 3RU. Without data drives, it comes in at $2815 (a year ago, likely less now). The linked article also talks about replication and backup to an LTO library.

Take a close look at the "Ideas for a future RAIDzilla III" section. The changes would be to use a more modern motherboard / CPU, expander backplanes, and probably a NVMe SSD instead of a PCIe add-in SSD.
So you have experience with LTO then? Have you used LTFS before? My biggest outstanding question is whether LTFS maintains precise timestamps. (I dont know why it shouldn't but it's essential to SnapRAID's functionality to have fine grained timestamps i'm told.)

My biggest future bottleneck will be performance but that's okay. A cheap bitbucket to hold data mirrored until I can get it into Ultrium tapes as fast as possible is the #1 minimum baseline. At least then whatever data comes in from a shoot is saved reliably. Upgrading performance (and going from 2way to 3way tape mirrors) comes as soon afterwards as possible.
 

Deslok

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I've considered it, actually reading Backblaze's stuff is part of what made me start planning bigger than I originally did, with just planning 'scale out' with multiple NAS boxes if required if I hit a wall of "too big for conveniently in one box".

I was wanting to use SnapRAID (potentially under linux but windows isnt out of the question if there's other benefits) unless someone can talk me into a different software. I wont necessarily ONLY use SnapRAID, but it's the first such system I want to learn and apply on a test NAS.

SnapRAID doesn't support deduplication unfortunately, but it does let me fill disks absolutely to the brim without any concern like FreeNAS ZFS seems to want for buffer space. It wont be my ultimate solution, just my first step.




So you have experience with LTO then? Have you used LTFS before? My biggest outstanding question is whether LTFS maintains precise timestamps. (I dont know why it shouldn't but it's essential to SnapRAID's functionality to have fine grained timestamps i'm told.)

My biggest future bottleneck will be performance but that's okay. A cheap bitbucket to hold data mirrored until I can get it into Ultrium tapes as fast as possible is the #1 minimum baseline. At least then whatever data comes in from a shoot is saved reliably. Upgrading performance (and going from 2way to 3way tape mirrors) comes as soon afterwards as possible.
In the question of windows vs linux windows does have storage spaces with deduplication available and storage spaces can be rebuilt to add disks although you'd have to skim the windows server forums in regards to that as I haven't tested that myself.
 

Terry Kennedy

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So you have experience with LTO then?
Yes, quite a bit.
Have you used LTFS before?
No, sorry.
My biggest outstanding question is whether LTFS maintains precise timestamps. (I dont know why it shouldn't but it's essential to SnapRAID's functionality to have fine grained timestamps i'm told.)
The LTFS specification document says (on page 29/30):

LTO Spec 2.0.1 said:
5.7 Time stamp format
Time stamps in LTFS data structures must be specified as a string conforming with the ISO 8601 date and time representation standard. The time stamp must be specified in UTC (Zulu) time as indicated by the ‘Z’ character in the example below. The time must be specified with a fractional second value that defines 9 decimal places after the period in the format.

2010-02-01T18:35:47.866846222Z

The general time format is YYYY-MM-DDThh:mm:ss.nnnnnnnnnZ where:
Symbol
Description
YYYY
the four-digit year as measured in the Common Era.
MM
an integer between 01 and 12 corresponding to the month.
DD
an integer between 01 and 31 corresponding to the day in the month.
hh
an integer between between 00 and 23 corresponding to the hour in the day.
mm
an integer between 00 and 59 corresponding to the minute in the hour.
ss
an integer between 00 and 59 corresponding to the second in the minute.
nnnnnnnnn
an integer between 000000000 and 999999999 measuring the decimal fractional second value.
Note: The characters ‘-’, ‘T’, ‘:’, ‘.’, and ‘Z’ in the time stamp format are field separators. The ‘Z’ character indicates that the time stamp is recorded in UTC (Zulu) time.

All date and time fields in the time stamp format must be padded to the full width of the symbol using 0 characters. For example, an integer month value of ‘2’ must be recorded as ‘02’ to fill the width of the MM symbol in the general time format.
 
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Perhaps You need to reconsider the name of Your post, as it does not appear that is what you are aiming for, if I read your responses to the experienced folks are supplying responses for an "enterprise class" . Just an observation .....
I think I already responded to this, but I wanted to give a second followup because I was going back over original posts I made to look for information I might've missed. I have to admit i've sort of been talked back into the SAS Expander concept after it was explained better to me, I was just dissuaded by seeing $3000 chassis that didn't even have PSU's before realizing last gen stuff could be had for as little as a tenth that.

The biggest issue is not necessarily "never spending the money" but in many cases "postponing spending the money" because I have to upgrade piecemeal. Having flexible solutions greatly assists that. For instance it's sounding like FreeNAS ZFS is likely a "better" system if I can have matched drives everywhere, bought at the outset, and set up as a monolith. My need to grow the system over time, as needed, right before it's needed is probably making me commit to SnapRAID. Thankfully the hardware that should work with SnapRAID sounds like it should also work with FreeNAS later - just potentially with far far more RAM and cpu power.

The end goal by all accounts probably IS going to end up with for instance the suggested SAS Expander chassis, it's more of a question of what do I learn and setup now growing towards that, before I can do it 'right' without losing data until then.