CWWK/Topton/... Nxxx quad NIC router

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BoomBangCrash

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May 21, 2019
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One option for power - you can get USB-c to DC barrel cables on Ali-express for a few £/$/bananas. These force USB-c supplies to 12v and so let you use one of the very efficient GaN USB-c supplies that are widely available (and safety tested with *real* logos).

I've ordered a couple - one here already, i'll try and get some efficiency numbers, though for me the safety side is the most reassuring
 
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Becks0815

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Oct 15, 2022
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One option for power - you can get USB-c to DC barrel cables on Ali-express for a few £/$/bananas.
Already done. I have used a load tester, set it to the values mentioned in the column "Output" and then measured at the wall how much a 12V adapter used as input. I tried an Ulefone PD charger (was laying around), a Ugreen GaN 65W and a Leicke 12V/75W adapter. the yellow values are the corresponding efficiencies. For the PD ones I used such an USB C "dummy" module to force 12V output.



As already said: you lose a lot if you stay below 10W, and to overcome this, you need to bundle multiple devices and use a single adapter, and above 10W they are pretty much the same. I only haven't been able to test the Mean well I also have, because it is used on my router.

What I also haven't done is to test multiple voltages at the same time, something which is handy if you have e.g. a UGreen 65PD with 3 USB connectors and could use them to fire a NAS, a router (both 12V) and a switch (running at 5V).
 

BDYB

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Apr 25, 2023
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Becks0815
Hi, i'm also considering those shiny topton boxes with Nxxx CPUs.
Though my use is going to be a bit different. My intention is to have GP OS like Arch/Ubuntu to serve as host and have the router virtualized. I also intend to use the machine as file and media server (with Kodi) connected to the TV. The questions are:
  • VFIO (always tricky). Would it be possible to pass through NIC to the guest router machine?
  • Can it handle HDR playback? Play back blue ray rips from NAS with Kodi.
Thanks.
 
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Becks0815

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Oct 15, 2022
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You have to buy one and test it, because I don't have the software installed you plan to use and can't give any feedback.

I can only say: the combination proxmox&opnsense works, opnsense baremetal seems to be problematic, at least with the NVME drive I am using.
 
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BDYB

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Apr 25, 2023
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You have to buy one and test it, because I don't have the software installed you plan to use and can't give any feedback.

I can only say: the combination proxmox&opnsense works, opnsense baremetal seems to be problematic, at least with the NVME drive I am using.
Are there any VFIO settings in BIOS?
 

Becks0815

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Oct 15, 2022
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No. there is a generic setting to allow virtual machines, but that's all. Implementation of VFIO happens within the virtualization software (for me Proxmox). Here I am using Proxmox as middleware between the N100 and Opnsense for the hard drive but allow direct pass through access for the NICs and the CPU so I can use some of the power consumption saving tricks I am using.
 

Snorgle

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Apr 18, 2020
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Just thought I'd mention an alternative: last week I ordered a similar box with another Alder Lake processor, the pentium gold 8505, currently available more cheaply than the N95/N100/N200/N305 boxes, but with specs that seem higher in some respects (cache size, total threads and max turbe freq). It does have a much higher wattage though so I guess the catch will be to see whether it overheats. The box I ordered has an active fan. It's coming by slow boat so I guess I won't know for some time, but thought I'd mention it here in case anyone else is interested.
@Iko I'm super excited by the WooYi unit price/features compromise as well. It seems they have a stellar reputation for their J4125 boxes at least. I look forward to you sharing your experience when it arrives in the coming month(s). I'm guessing the BIOS on the WooYi will allow adjusting PL1 and PL2 but won't allow adjusting Tau.

Too bad the WooYi comes with such a short fin stack and the next closest 8505 or i3 unit that actually has that feature is like $100 more. Hopefully a vendor does a full height fin stack with an 8505 for like $210-$220 in the future. For now, this WooYi looks awesome for the price.
 

Kenjutso

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Apr 27, 2023
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My N200 unit came in the other day and I just installed 32 GB DDR5 (Crucial) in it and it sees all of the memory and boots to a live USB of Ubuntu just fine. I'm waiting on my nvme drive to come in tomorrow to start messing around with bare metal vs virtualized opnsense + extras.
 

Becks0815

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Oct 15, 2022
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Did you order from CWWK or another shop, and what type of case did you buy? I am interested in seeing how other models keep up with the heat.

And I guess I'll combine the settings I have tried and posted here in a single comment, so it is easier to pick up where I stopped and start from there.
 

roarking

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Aug 28, 2022
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My N200 unit came in the other day and I just installed 32 GB DDR5 (Crucial) in it and it sees all of the memory and boots to a live USB of Ubuntu just fine. I'm waiting on my nvme drive to come in tomorrow to start messing around with bare metal vs virtualized opnsense + extras.
Looking forward to the Passmark performance test results on the N200 with DDR5 RAM! I hope you can run the test :)

PassMark PerformanceTest - PC Benchmark Software

Installation of Passmark on Ubuntu:
Code:
sudo apt install libncurses5
wget https://www.passmark.com/downloads/pt_linux_x64.zip
unzip pt_linux_x64.zip
sudo ./PerformanceTest/pt_linux_x64

The resulting output will look like the example below (from my unit with N5105):
Code:
                         PassMark PerformanceTest Linux


Intel Celeron N5105 @ 2.00GHz (x86_64)
4 cores @ 2900 MHz  |  7.5 GiB RAM
Number of Processes: 4  |  Test Iterations: 1  |  Test Duration: Medium
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPU Mark:                          3827
  Integer Math                     14254 Million Operations/s
  Floating Point Math              7459 Million Operations/s
  Prime Numbers                    13.3 Million Primes/s
  Sorting                          6366 Thousand Strings/s
  Encryption                       3107 MB/s
  Compression                      47143 KB/s
  CPU Single Threaded              1450 Million Operations/s
  Physics                          285 Frames/s
  Extended Instructions (SSE)      1387 Million Matrices/s

Memory Mark:                       1162
  Database Operations              1356 Thousand Operations/s
  Memory Read Cached               14255 MB/s
  Memory Read Uncached             8391 MB/s
  Memory Write                     7336 MB/s
  Available RAM                    1243 Megabytes
  Memory Latency                   58 Nanoseconds
  Memory Threaded                  12641 MB/s
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Results not submitted
Upload results to cpubenchmark.net? [Y/n]:

Use ESC or CTRL-C to exit
A: Run All Tests   C: Run CPU Tests   M: Run Memory Tests   U: Upload Test Results
 
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hopsor

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Apr 9, 2023
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And I guess I'll combine the settings I have tried and posted here in a single comment, so it is easier to pick up where I stopped and start from there.
that'll be really appreciated. I just ordered my cwwk N100 yesterday and that'll help a lot when it arrives. Thanks in advance!
 

Becks0815

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Oct 15, 2022
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Wrap up...

- Initial hardware preparation was to replace the original thermal paste with Arctic MX4.
- Installation of opnsense bare metal failed due to issues with the hard drive. FreeBSD constantly caused errors. Opnsense on Proxmox runs stable.


BIOS:
- All unneeded hardware off and unplugged: SATA disabled, USB HSII on xHCI disabled, HD audio disabled, Serial I2C5 controller disabled, eMMC 5.1 Controller disabled, Sensor Hub type None
- PECI on (no idea if it has an influence, it just runs)
- Platform PL1&2 disabled (no time yet to play with)
- power limit 4 override disabled
- Package PL1 = 8000, PL2 = 25000, Energy eff-turbo enabled (-> is in the CPU/Turbo sub tab)
- C-States enabled, Package limit C10

Chipset -> PCH-IO Config -> PCI Express Config:
- every unneeded PCIe slot disabled. I am using slot #1, 7,9,10 and 12. Slot 9,10,11 and 12 are the NICs. On the enabled ones, I have ASPM = auto, but L1 low and L1 Substates disabled - had no time to test the influence on Proxmox and Opnsense.



Proxmox:
The installation of Proxmox 7.4 will halt with an x-server error. Identify the VGA port with lspci ( 02:00.0 for me), then create /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/n100.conf
Code:
Section "Device"
    Identifier "Card0"
    Driver "fbdev"
    BusID "pci0:02:0:0:"
EndSection
and then run xinit again.

- CPU governor: powersave
- install PVE-Kernel 6.2, it results in a lower power consumption


Opnsense VM settings in Proxmox
- 4 CPUs, type host, all meltdown etc. mitigations disabled
- hard drive: type lvm
- NICs: both NICs: pass through and not virtual. NIC1 = WAN, NIC2 = LAN
- a third NIC of the box is connected internally to the switch and set to 100 mbit only. It is only used to access the Proxmox host. Important if you run the other NICs on pass through, as you can't share the LAN port with the Proxmox host.



Opnsense tunings:
Tunables:
dev.igc.0.fc =0, dev.igc.1.fc = 0 (Flow control disabled)
hw.acpi.cpu.cx_lowest = C3 (can be set to C8, didn't see any differences in power consumption)
hw.ibrs_disable = 1 disable Spectre V2 mitigation
hw.igc.rx_process_limit = -1 (set unlimited packets per interrupt)
hw.igc.eee_setting = 0 - Enable Energy Efficient Ethernet
vm.pmap.pti = 0 (Meltdown mitigation off)

- Interfaces -> settings: all hardware offloads enabled.
- CPU governor: Hiadaptive, Powerd disabled (had no influence)

Add an additional line in /etc/rc.conf
Code:
 harvest_mask="351"
This excludes IRQ and NICs from being uses as source for random seeds and adds some speed


Stress tests etc.:
- install lm_sensors on proxmox, run "watch sensors" in one shell
- install stress-ng and run "stress-ng --matrix 0 -t 1m" ina second shell to see, how hot the box gets after running for 1 minute.

Package limits can be read out with
Code:
powercap-info -p intel-rapl
To set PL1 = 8W and PL2 to 26 W, run:
Code:
powercap-set -z 0 -p intel-rapl -c 1 -l 26000000
powercap-set -z 0 -p intel-rapl -c 0 -l 8000000
Then run a stress test to see how well the box behaves under load.

With the above settings, my N100 draws between 6 and 12 W (measured on the 12V line, so you might have to add 15-20% if you measure at the wall, depending on the power supply details). I know that some boxes crash after running for a week, but I still consider the system to be stable. I have tried both, from long time idle (to trigger unwanted energy saving mechanisms) to 200 mbit in both directions with many connections at the same time. System is stable, no crash or reboot so far.
 
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Kenjutso

New Member
Apr 27, 2023
4
9
3
Looking forward to the Passmark performance test results on the N200 with DDR5 RAM! I hope you can run the test :)

PassMark PerformanceTest - PC Benchmark Software

Installation of Passmark on Ubuntu:
Code:
sudo apt install libncurses5
wget https://www.passmark.com/downloads/pt_linux_x64.zip
unzip pt_linux_x64.zip
sudo ./PerformanceTest/pt_linux_x64

The resulting output will look like the example below (from my unit with N5105):
Code:
                         PassMark PerformanceTest Linux


Intel Celeron N5105 @ 2.00GHz (x86_64)
4 cores @ 2900 MHz  |  7.5 GiB RAM
Number of Processes: 4  |  Test Iterations: 1  |  Test Duration: Medium
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPU Mark:                          3827
  Integer Math                     14254 Million Operations/s
  Floating Point Math              7459 Million Operations/s
  Prime Numbers                    13.3 Million Primes/s
  Sorting                          6366 Thousand Strings/s
  Encryption                       3107 MB/s
  Compression                      47143 KB/s
  CPU Single Threaded              1450 Million Operations/s
  Physics                          285 Frames/s
  Extended Instructions (SSE)      1387 Million Matrices/s

Memory Mark:                       1162
  Database Operations              1356 Thousand Operations/s
  Memory Read Cached               14255 MB/s
  Memory Read Uncached             8391 MB/s
  Memory Write                     7336 MB/s
  Available RAM                    1243 Megabytes
  Memory Latency                   58 Nanoseconds
  Memory Threaded                  12641 MB/s
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Results not submitted
Upload results to cpubenchmark.net? [Y/n]:

Use ESC or CTRL-C to exit
A: Run All Tests   C: Run CPU Tests   M: Run Memory Tests   U: Upload Test Results

After a looking through this thread and doing some BIOS tweaks this is what I'm getting on the test.
I have a Topton unit that looks like Variation C from the first posts images.

Code:
                          PassMark PerformanceTest Linux

Intel N200 (x86_64)

4 cores @ 3700 MHz  |  31.1 GiB RAM
Number of Processes: 4  |  Test Iterations: 1  |  Test Duration: Medium
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

CPU Mark:                          5529
  Integer Math                     19107 Million Operations/s
  Floating Point Math              11902 Million Operations/s
  Prime Numbers                    26.3 Million Primes/s
  Sorting                          7736 Thousand Strings/s
  Encryption                       4032 MB/s
  Compression                      52081 KB/s
  CPU Single Threaded              2151 Million Operations/s
  Physics                          494 Frames/s
  Extended Instructions (SSE)      2503 Million Matrices/s

Memory Mark:                       2658
  Database Operations              2759 Thousand Operations/s
  Memory Read Cached               19515 MB/s
  Memory Read Uncached             12539 MB/s
  Memory Write                     9733 MB/s
  Available RAM                    28961 Megabytes
  Memory Latency                   31 Nanoseconds
  Memory Threaded                  28111 MB/s

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Results submitted: https://www.passmark.com/baselines/V10/display.php?id=503740048746
 

komodikkio

New Member
Apr 25, 2023
13
0
1
Hi all and thanks for the researches and all the info you're sharing.

I'm considering this kind of device because i have an FttH connection, witch provides (or at least should) 1G/200M, and the Linksys 1900acs i'm actually using (openwrt installed), can't go further 600M in download, 400M if cake or some kind of QoS it's enabled. The wan connection is on ppoe and needs a specific vlan.
Could this kind of dev, with openwrt baremetal or proxmox/esxi as hypervisor, provide a best experience, while allowing at the same time to run many other vms/features?
I was thinking to go for an n100/200 model, getting 16/32G ram and an nvme drive. Maybe using the old 1900acs as AP.
I'm a bit retained by the need to dismount the device and change the thermal paste thing, etc.

I'm completely new to this kind of market, in your opinion, for witch kind of model/case should i go, and from which reseller?

Thanks in advance for all the advices you could eventually provide.
 
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Thorror

New Member
Sep 16, 2022
16
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3
I'm considering this kind of device because i have an FttH connection, witch provides (or at least should) 1G/200M, and the Linksys 1900acs i'm actually using (openwrt installed), can't go further 600M in download, 400M if cake or some kind of QoS it's enabled. The wan connection is on ppoe and needs a specific vlan.
Sounds like you are from Germany. ;) This should be no problem. I habe a J6413 Proxmox/Opnsense Combo running. I passthrough some NICs to the VM

Could this kind of dev, with openwrt baremetal or proxmox/esxi as hypervisor, provide a best experience, while allowing at the same time to run many other vms/features?
You can, but it depends on what kind of VMs you are using of course. Without specifics nobody can give you advice on that
 

komodikkio

New Member
Apr 25, 2023
13
0
1
Hey Thorror,
thanks for your reply, i'm fron Italy actually, the far south-east :)
Sounds like you are from Germany. ;) This should be no problem. I habe a J6413 Proxmox/Opnsense Combo running. I passthrough some NICs to the VM

You can, but it depends on what kind of VMs you are using of course. Without specifics nobody can give you advice on that
I'm have no clear plans atm on what kind of vms i would run, at the end.
If i would go for the virtualization way, I think i would run something related to networking/security (firewall, ips, or so), maybe a proxy, some services for remote vpn/tunneling, maybe a vdi to startup remotely when needed.

What i'm concerned about it's the general stability for daily use, i'm away from home the most part of the day and my wife, instead, works from home... And I have to grant here a good&stable connection, because she needs that for her job.

As i said, i'm totally new to aliex, cwwk and similar market. So i have no idea about how i should move.
 

Stovar

Active Member
Dec 27, 2022
174
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cwwk tend to be overall a bit more reliable and better support but its just like with anything you sometimes get those issues.

I opted for bare metal set up with my openwrt setup, while I do like the proxmox and vm side of things (not fully dived into it) I need stability and up-time in my home, there are many that have done it well and stable anyhow but if you are away from home and perhaps not able to reboot or look into the issue if there is one it imo might make it harder to do.

One way I guess is go bare metal operation with your fav firewall or software, see if its stable running then after a few weeks if you have the time go for the more advanced vm setups or more.

Its a good idea to monitor performance, cpu temps and overall stability with these Asian built mini pcs imo.
 

komodikkio

New Member
Apr 25, 2023
13
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Yea, i could move this way, start it easy and then experiment when some spear time'll be available.
It's the ram/nvme drive installation easy or should i go for those proposed by them?

In virtualization mode, i could deploy a zabbix server to monitor things around.

Did you pull off/replaced the thermal paste?
Are the cwwk's shipments fast/reliable enough? Better than Ali?

I can't find a device with usb3 ports, am i missing something or there's not any?
cwwk tend to be overall a bit more reliable and better support but its just like with anything you sometimes get those issues.
...snip...
Its a good idea to monitor performance, cpu temps and overall stability with these Asian built mini pcs imo.
 
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