Advice needed M.2 MLC SSDs, reliable HDDs, ReFS, etc.

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Sean Ho

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Regarding spinners, WD/HGST are excellent and BB annual review consistently supports this. Shucks 8TB and greater are exactly the same hardware as enterprise SAS drives, just speaking a different protocol. Used SAS drives can be a good deal, too, often around $10/TB. You do need a SAS HBA, e.g. anything based on the venerable LSI SAS2008 chipset that can be flashed to IT passthrough mode. They do need an x8 slot. Each port (8087 or 8643) breaks out to four drives (8482) with a forward breakout cable. If that's not enough drives, you can also add a SAS expander (though they have gotten more expensive than additional HBAs lately with Chia).
 
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StanLee

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Haven't read through all of your questions, but a quick note on the SATA power extensions: the famously fiery cables are due to molded plastic connectors that hide poor wire terminations which develop high resistance. The SATA power connector design itself is just fine, as are the 18awg wires over the distances in usual tower cases

What we've recommended is splitters using IDC, which are both secure (you can visually verify the tap) and easy to redo by hand. Pop off the cap, then remove the 3.3v line (you don't need it; that's why PWDIS chose to re-use the pin -- spinners use 12v for the servos, and all drives use 5v for the electronics). While you're at it, you can even reposition the connectors to match the spacing in your drive cages.

Thanks, in desperation I bought a Rosewill set on the idea they would hopefully not immediately combust.

I see they make other cables as well, hopefully all to good standards, and have their own webstore so I can be sure to avoid counterfeits. Excellent.

IDC & PWDIS are all greek to me, but I'll have to figure it out.
 
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StanLee

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Apr 10, 2022
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Regarding spinners, WD/HGST are excellent and BB annual review consistently supports this. Shucks 8TB and greater are exactly the same hardware as enterprise SAS drives, just speaking a different protocol. Used SAS drives can be a good deal, too, often around $10/TB.
Well, I'm confused, again. This last month I read an article at Backblaze, I think it was for Q1 2022. From what I read they weren't buying WD anymore, due to criteria, and they were such a small number that the report didn't reflect them as statistical significant.

*Now*, this is the latest I see:


This 2021 report shows WD, but they are the least number of drives according to at least one chart I saw. I'll have to dig through my saved files and/or get checked for a stroke.

I guess I don't know how to deal with WD regarding SMR. All WD's larger drives are some sort of 'MR, PMR, HMR, whatever, & I don't know how this relates to SMR, but WD won't tell which HDDs are SMR & even stealth reinstated SMR on Red drives after saying they would remove it. I just reread an STH article that said, I believe, enough is enough, to paraphrase.

AFAIK, SMR can't be disabled & causes the HDDs to stop responding while they take care of housekeeping. None if that sounds desirable. But maybe now all HDDs are SMR?? Help!??

You do need a SAS HBA, e.g. anything based on the venerable LSI SAS2008 chipset that can be flashed to IT passthrough mode. They do need an x8 slot. Each port (8087 or 8643) breaks out to four drives (8482) with a forward breakout cable. If that's not enough drives, you can also add a SAS expander (though they have gotten more expensive than additional HBAs lately with Chia).
Regarding SAS, I haven't - I don't think - found a actual SAS adapter to shoehorn into an M.2 socket. Maybe there's USB-C adapters? Maybe there are no large SATA HDDs? I haven't actually checked that out. I've only got the 4 PCIe slots, & this case has some wiggle room for moving cards around for use with spltters, but it will get ugly fast if other adapters are in the mix.

My HDD storage is the more pedestrian area of my system. For this build I probably just need a few HDDs. One for data (that's fed, eventually, to the GPUs), one for storing rendered output, and something to back up them & any SSDs.

But we will see. I looked at using network storage in the past, that might be what's necessary in the long run if I ever get up to editing animated content. Rendering 4k at 60fps might need a lot more drives than I think. I won't know what's broken 'til I break it.

I feel neither fish nor fowl, my questions don't entirely fit in a gaming forum nor a server one, they are some sort of hybrid use case, one that could go anywhere, apologies for that.
 

StanLee

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Regarding NVMe, 1.6TB P3605 AIO for $150 shipped is a great deal; this is a very sturdy and speedy drive that also goes by the name of Oracle F160. Search STH for threads on this drive: Intel SSD DC P3605 Series PCIe 1.6TB SSDPEDME016T4S Low Profile | eBay
We're reading the same ads, I think!

I've got a bunch of that stuff watched, but can't really buy any of it until the plan is finalized on drive control & configuration. To use it all I need a 7 x16 slot MB & a Mountain Mods case. Instead, I went with plan B, as in "I might Break something I can't afford!"
 

nabsltd

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I guess I don't know how to deal with WD regarding SMR. All WD's larger drives are some sort of 'MR, PMR, HMR, whatever, & I don't know how this relates to SMR
Wikipedia explains all:
  • PMR (newer than the years old longitudinal, but has no real effect on drive usage)
  • SMR (overlapping of data means writing data to an already used block requires reading and re-writing more than just the target data)
  • HAMR (uses heat to temporarily reduce the amount of magnetism needed to alter specific bits on disk, allowing smaller bits and so more data per unit of area)
All current drives you'll buy will use either PMR or SMR, unless you are really into some exotic, super-dense magnetic disks. PMR has been the standard for a very long time, and disks might not even say they use it because it is so standard, and has no performance implications.

SMR is great for write-once, read-mostly (like backups), or for data that is cycled (like backups that age out...delete the oldest and write new data there and you have no speed penalty). Use cases like Backblaze actually appreciate this technology, as it means a lot more storage per platter, and eventually per disk slot. SMR is also bad when using techniques like striping across multiple disks (e.g., many standard RAID levels). A pool system that uses disks more individually is not impacted as much, but you still don't want a lot of change activity.
 
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Sean Ho

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SMR is no good for write-intensive workload, no doubt about it. Thus far, all shucked WD spinners 8TB and higher have been CMR, and in most cases are the very same drive (modulo SAS vs SATA interface) as HGST datacenter drives. IBM's drive division was bought by Hitachi and renamed HGST, and then in turn acquired by WD. HGST consistently scores at the top of BB's reports.
 
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StanLee

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Wikipedia explains all:
[snip]
All current drives you'll buy will use either PMR or SMR, unless you are really into some exotic, super-dense magnetic disks. PMR has been the standard for a very long time, and disks might not even say they use it because it is so standard, and has no performance implications
I think I'm getting it with the help of you guys. I've read the definitions, it just sounded to me like SMR was how it was laid out on the platters, as opposed to the technological means of encoding.

I guess another part I was missing is the brands aren't shy about crowing about using these fancy technologies they poured money into for years, but it was still a mystery if they were using SMR or not. If you see what I mean? "Yes, we laser heat our drives, but we aren't going to tell you if we use SMR!"

Actually, I just realized my main source on the topic says SMR uses PMR, and CMR is 'pure' PMR. It's all a bit confusing. It really sounds like it's a layout vs encoding tech topologies kind of thing. "Just when I thought I was out they pulled me back in!"

This was one of my main references, translated & paragraphs rearranged by topic in my notes for clarity for my own uses (apologies for any mangling):

>>>


Since PMR is also used within SMR technology, one usually speaks of CMR, conventional magnetic recording, when hard disks with a pure PMR recording process are meant. If you are aware of these two technologies, you can make good use of advantages and disadvantages.

Manufacturer Seagate used, for example, SMR (device managed) for the hard disks of the BarraCuda (3.5 inch), FireCuda SSHD (2.5 inch) and the BarraCuda and BarraCuda Pro drives in 2.5 inch format . The BarraCuda Pro 3.5-inch drives and all models in the IronWolf, IronWolf Pro, SkyHawk AI and Exos X series are CMR drives. Both versions of the SkyHawk series are either already on the market or announced as SMR. In normal marketing, no further reference is made to the special features of the respective recording technologies. Fortunately, however, Seagate offers extensive data sheets and operating instructions that make the necessary information quickly accessible to interested consumers.

Manufacturers Toshiba and Seagate have been using the PMR process since the middle of the last decade. This method became necessary to provide more than 750 GB in conventional 3.5 inch hard drives and in SAS hard drives hard drives

At Western Digital, only certain series of the UltraStar series (formerly HGST) are currently marked with SMR recording technology (device managed, as well as host-managed). The new 2018 Red and Blue models also come with cache features (see our article on the WD60EFAX), or certain Red models are already confirmed SMR hard drives. In contrast to Seagate, there is no explanation of the recording method here. The same applies to the manufacturer Toshiba, who confirmed on request that no information on the recording method used can be published. Meanwhile, it is also known here that models of the P300 series use SMR without being marked as such.

Regrettably, the manufacturers WD and Toshiba hardly or not at all communicate with the customer. The manufacturer Western Digital continues to advertise its RED hard drives with the slogan "Developed for use in NAS".

With MAMR hard drives from WD and HAMR hard drives from Seagate, innovative recording methods are coming in the near future, with which even more capacity can be accommodated in the 3.5-inch housing. The first 20 TB hard drive (SMR) should be available later this year.

If the manufacturer doesn't say anything, it's up to the user to determine what they bought. However, not all SMR drives behave the same, so identification is even more difficult. The general rule is: If an SMR hard disk is written to beyond the capacity of its buffer, the transfer rate is usually reduced by half. Using the example of different hard drives, we will show what you can also pay attention to. If you are unsure about the interpretation of the HD Tune graphs and CDM values, you can use the Seagate IronWolf Pro 16 TB ST16000NE000 (our article) to get an idea of what events a pure CMR/PMR hard drive delivers.

In comparison, we take a model from the same manufacturer and the same era. According to the data sheet, the Seagate IronWolf 6 TB ST6000VN0033 has no SMR, but a kTpi of 370 and thus uses a conventional recording method. Here we see that the disk can write without interruptions.

We also noticed the sawtooth we described when writing in HD-Tune in another Seagate model with confirmed SMR.

We summarize what are the key points we have seen from confirmed SMR hard drives.

- non-continuous writing
- writing high 4K values

In addition, there may be the conspicuously implausible reading with HD-Tune.

We also dealt with traditional writing activities. Because of the way it works, a drive with SMR must theoretically perform worse here than a conventionally written drive. To what extent the write rate is significantly lower and whether such drives are really useless, as some people think, we will clarify here. Of course, read and write tests do not cover all possible uses, but hard drives have now been replaced by SSDs as games or program drives. We decided to use the Windows display method because HD-Tune's recording function displays the result logarithmically. The curves are easy for everyone to interpret and the exact transfer rate doesn't
play that big a role in this test.

WD SMR drives use Full LBA Indirection. Unlike CMR drives, SMR drives allow the LBA's mapping to physical location to change with each write. This requires HDD resources to keep track of LBAs that are mapped to a physical location (translation table like what is used for SSDs).

Trimming releases those resources and frees up the physical media space to be reused. Trimming also relieves the drive of background activities associated with the 'un-needed' write data.

Only the host can tell the drive what data is no longer needed. The drive will never delete user data on its own. A Trim command will tell the command what specific data is no longer needed.

<<<
 

StanLee

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IBM's drive division was bought by Hitachi and renamed HGST, and then in turn acquired by WD. HGST consistently scores at the top of BB's reports.
More, than that my friend whose career was in industrial computing considered them the most reliable, and if I talk about using any other brand he looks like he wants to kill me. He did slip up one day and threw a screwdriver at a tech's head after some typical debacle. Luckily it didn't get deep enough to stick.

SMR is no good for write-intensive workload, no doubt about it. Thus far, all shucked WD spinners 8TB and higher have been CMR, and in most cases are the very same drive (modulo SAS vs SATA interface) as HGST datacenter drives.
HGST! Good to know. I was thinking of going 12-16TB, so I assume SMR is a possibility. Going with Seagate's datasheets would be safest before purchasing, except for that pesky failure rate issue! I know a caching software I looked at years ago essentially pooled drives together, if I recall right. I've been looking for it, and just got done reading a Reddit post saying they had tried the top caching SW and they were junk, to use Intel's instead.

The good news is that for production one drive will mainly just get read. I suppose a larger SSD might be enough for rendered output temporarily, instead of an HDD. But there needs to be a backup, HDD or tape, or both? Hmmm...

I know SMR's 'trimming' can choke a RAID, I don't know if it can mess up other applications. Caching SW could fix that by temporarily 'spooling' to SSD. Too many unknowns!