802.11be the cheap way.... <$40

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Tech Junky

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So, in the past I used a QNAP AC1200 card and hostapd to make my own AP.

Since AX/E came out the pickings have been slim and finally with BE things seem to be back on track. Though the plastic boxes are over priced to say the least. Starting prices $300+ and typically above $500 and AP only options are very slim with 2-3 devices being available.

I started hunting down the usual suspects QCA / MTK / etc. and having tried MTK in the past w/ dismal results waited for QCA. The problem with bleeding edge though is usually it's hard to find inventory and this even shows with the Intel BE200 gong in and out of stock depending on when you look. Intel by far for clients is the cheapest though at under $20/client and the QCA is about double but, there are some perks. QCA is not hobbled to AX speeds like Intel. For some reason (most likely regulatory) has hobbled their adapters to 160mhz and not allowing the new 320mhz 6ghz spectrum to be used which defeats the purpose of even considering upgrading.

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I've had this debate on other forums when discussing APs and figure the STH audience might be more apt to consider this solution than the off the shelf diehards on other forums.

The only downfall of this setup is only having 2 antennas vs AP/router options that have 4. Back when I was using the AC1200 card though it had 2 controllers one for 2.4/5 and required 2 instances of hostapd to bring up both radios. I'm hoping to only have to run a single instance with this card though. The unknown though is how hostapd will control it. I can stack configs for the radios in the config file though. I might have to change the SSID I'm using on a couple of devices to aggregate things instead of keeping them segregated 2.4 / 5 with the low speed / legacy devices on 2.4 and only faster devices on 5.

AX led me to use a traditional AP in the meantime to get 1.7gbps from a client back to my server setup as a router. The idea though is go back to a minimalist setup w/o the need for the POE injector / AP hanging off the side. I have a couple of RP-SMA antennas from before to make sure LOS is optimal and not hidden behind the server itself to get better results. I'm thinking I should be able to max the link out though with an adapter on both sides (server/laptop) and additional testing with my phone that also does BE.

Taking the cabling out of the equation eliminates any bottlenecks that could be introduced. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds once configured.
 
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SnJ9MX

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So you're going to use client WiFi 7 card and hostapd to make an AP? Do you anticipate having any issues doing so?
 

oneplane

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Depending on the embedded PPE, NPU and DSP a client card can still do quite a good AP job; back in the day the difference was very small, then the difference got very big for a while (client vs. AP) but now due to the larger amount of concurrent connections and WiFi-Direct (and AWDL implementations) we're seeing high-end client chipsets being just as performant as prosumer AP chipsets.
 
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Tech Junky

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So you're going to use client WiFi 7 card and hostapd to make an AP? Do you anticipate having any issues doing so?
The only gotcha's here are how the card will be controlled with hostapd. I can finesse things in the config to make things work. Things just depend on how the program handles the instructions and if I can split the SSIDs across the same radios like I have setup on a traditional AP currently.

a client card can still do quite a good AP job;
Yeah, with the AC1200 using dual radios it worked just fine for speed / coverage. I had gone through a few different AC routers at that point before getting sick of their antics with FW upgrades to break stuff constantly. I found most routers just sucked when it came to performance and stability. I really don't like dealing with off the shelf stuff you can find in the corner store when it comes to networking. They seem to put the least amount of effort into keeping things stable and performing at advertised rates. Not to mention their prices are higher than they should be for what they're offering.

$40 for a softap vs $400 for a plastic box with the same radio inside just doesn't make sense. Of course the general public doesn't know anything about networking and just feeds the commercial providers bottom line for disposable gear. When you look in the guts of the stuff being offered it's the same radios / controllers / hostapd being used but put in a pretty package. Then the price they charge for a 10GE NBASE-T port is insane and the POE need since most don't do AC adapters adds to the "tax".

For the larger spaces though this wouldn't be a great method for setting things up but, you could also use PI's and deploy them for cheaper than buying a premade box. There's tons of options to not paying retail and getting similar results. The issue with BE though is there's a limited option of cards to grab right now. There are some being sold with single bands 2.4/5/6 and some higher end 4 antenna options for ~$350. It just depends on your needs and how well you can MacGyver a working solution.

The other issue is the failure for people to realize they need to upgrade both sides of the connection to make full use of the speed boost. It doesn't make sense to pay $500 for a box that has BE if you have AX/E or AC adapters in your devices. I could have gone with the QCA adapter for the AP mode and shaved a few bucks off with the Intel BE200 but, they've locked out the 320mhz option for the time being.
 

thigobr

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I saw your post over on the anandtech forum. Looking forward to see your experience! I am planning a wifi upgrade for next year so this is another option to explore given the crazy prices for newer APs.
 

SnJ9MX

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I too am curious. Presumably with the additional frequency range available, and the likely lack of adoption by neighbors, even a small/non-optimal antenna could work wonders due to minimal interference.
 

Tech Junky

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anandtech
Yeah, I tend to post across different forums and see what people are thinking about different projects. Funny though I didn't get any hits over there but, a virtual uproar on an Asus centric one because it wasn't Asus.

I don't suspect I'll run into any big issues with this as I've managed to do it before and ran it for a couple of years w/ minimal issues. Most self inflicted by testing different options in the config. It's just nice to have the option to not get bent over for consumer prices or get locked into some ecosystem. These companies are nuts but, there are plenty of dumb people around to pay the huge markup.
 

Tech Junky

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I too am curious. Presumably with the additional frequency range available, and the likely lack of adoption by neighbors, even a small/non-optimal antenna could work wonders due to minimal interference.
I know for a fact no one around me is using 6ghz because I scanned the area with my phone. Also, the others in the building are mostly using DSL still because of their SSID indicating using ATT which doesn't offer fiber to the building. There are a couple of us nerds though as I've spotted a couple of FWA boxes broadcasting but, those only do 2.4/5ghz.

I'd have to look up my phone specs though for BE if it does 160 or 320... my bet is 160 because phones tend to cheap out on things like that .. They didn't list any of the details prior to buying it though. I figured out most of it by tracking down the chips inside and spec'ing out the rest by deduction.
 

noduck

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Interesting. Hadn't thought of DIY APs since mesing with Linksys WRT54. What do you use to build a complete AP: board/case/OS? Anything that is PoE-powered, and can go on the wall/ceiling?
 

oneplane

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It does look like the wcn7851 chip this card is based on is specifically designed to be a 8x8 MIMO 2x2 Antenna client card (does all sorts of things like hardware accelerated audio processing), but it also has MLO which is super useful for an AP so you can use multiple bands at once which is something that isn't always possible with modern radio chips. That said, such a link is usually initiated in the other direction so maybe it doesn't matter in this case. Couldn't find anything on the PPE, NPU and DSP configuration for the chip, probably NDA'ed stuff.
 

Tech Junky

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@noduck

My purpose is just put it inside my server as an AP. I run Ubuntu for everything else and it's just a package to add for hostapd and then configure the conf file and setup a service to activate on boot.

You could run them as a pi though as it's not intensive for the app to run. Of course you'd need to setup DHCP and the likes to get it working or backhaul it to your server / router.

I haven't really thought about making them a stand alone device though. Anything is possible though with Linux and M2 slot for the card. Just need the ath modules to bring up the card.

You could probably make a case and introduce POE but a USB charger would be enough to power it.

Something like this might work if you found one that does Ethernet instead of USB and Key-E for WIFI. I was looking into small boxes like this for 5G FWA and had a list of them saved but, of course they're not showing up now.

Basically all the routers / APs use the same guts but soldered vs module and run linux / hostapd to make them into an AP for use. It's just a matter of putting together the pieces and making them a server instead of a client.
 
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Tech Junky

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isn't always possible with modern radio chips
It's a real PITA sometimes with inferior options. When I was trying to come up with an AX/E option either I couldn't get my hands on a card or they were crap in terms of performance. Or I just didn't feel like spending $100 on a single card to get it working. It wasn't worth the hassle for the same speed as an AP out of the box. 10X price difference though for the basic BE setup is enough incentive to unlock the bandwidth though. Plus, putting the card into the machine that's on 24/7 anyway at a lower power consumption makes sense as well. Not to mention I can cut the POE injector from the equation and cables / AP. Just less mess and more minimalist appearance.
 

Tech Junky

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Looks like the M2 should be here tomorrow. Not bad AE! Seems they have stepped up their shipping game a bit from prior experiences.
 
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Tech Junky

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Got the cards and tackled the laptop install first since it's easier to mess with while not interrupting the server / router to install the M2.

The cards show up in Windows as wcn7851 which isn't quite the same as what is named for the M2 as QCNCM865 posted all over the net for the QCA BE adapters. When looking at Google it seems as though the drivers are picking up the BGA type chip w/o the PCB? It's weird... Anyway, also if you don't have a wired connection you won't have wifi with any generic Windows drivers as this isn't picked up yet.


Drivers for download. I use a program though that picked them up when connected to Ethernet and running a scan.

As you can see below BE is indeed on this adapter as advertised. Windows is showing connectivity to the AP I have at 2.4gbps.

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Now, the next step is to finagle this M2 into my server setup which I already dread a bit because of the stuff I need to pull out to get to the M2 socket to put this into. But, it is what it is and just need to do it to get things setup and test for 5gbps wifi ability between the two using hostapd.

File copy as is right now hitting 125MB/s which is consistent with the prior AX411 card though the QCA seems to sustain the speeds better so far. Just initial function testing right now to make sure things are working. Need some time to do in depth testing / stability.
 

thigobr

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Nice, thanks for the update! Regarding stability did you do any quick range testing compared to the older Intel card?
 

Tech Junky

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I don't range test them because 5ghz in my case works corner to corner just fine. 6ghz will be new for me at home and we'll see how that works once I get the AP mode setup.
 

Tech Junky

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Of course this changed a bit from back when I was using the AC1200 and how the firmware is loaded in the kernel. Played around with some ways to get the firmware to load but, eventually stumbled upon Adding WiFi Drivers to Ubuntu/Linux for Dell’s XPS-15 9500 with AX500

I had already switched kernel versions and assembled similar to the post but excluded everything except ath12k. Since the kvalo repo has the files I want to use listed under ath11k it's a bit counter intuitive and/or having to compile the kernel using the link above to get the adapter recognized is just a n00b security issue unless you're determined to get these things working. I suspect this will cause issues with other people adding them to their system w/o jumping through a couple of hoops to get the card working. Sources said the drivers and everything were added at 6.3 and there was an ath12k folder buried under the modules but, the old /lib/firmware structure doesn't really exist on a new install anymore with kernel modules built in.

Anyway....

Code:
[    5.856610] ath12k_pci 0000:5c:00.0: BAR 0: assigned [mem 0xa1a00000-0xa1bfffff 64bit]
[    5.856632] ath12k_pci 0000:5c:00.0: enabling device (0000 -> 0002)
[    5.856900] ath12k_pci 0000:5c:00.0: Hardware name: wcn7850 hw2.0

5c:00.0 Network controller: Qualcomm Technologies, Inc Device 1107 (rev 01)
Now to figure out how to make the IF appear to configure things and get it working as a client & AP for testing. Not sure why it's now showing up in iwconfig / ifconfig as it should if the FW is loading now. Then again it's probably something silly that needs to be enabled in the UEFI as adding the card didn't mess with my port configuration in linux as it probably should have by adding an additional device to the mix. Even turning on TB ports changed the IF index / naming.
 

Tech Junky

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Doesn't look good....

QCN9274 supports both AP and station; WCN7850 supports only station mode. Monitor mode is not (yet) supported. Only PCI bus devices are supported.
Seems as though there's a gotcha that was a bit unknown before purchase due to not disclosing the chipset. Then again Linux descriptions of devices in outputs sometimes aren't quite right either. I'm not 100% convinced this an issue as the Windows side is working but, still digging for more info on the Linux side due to the ath12k sort of working but not working as a client / ap at this point.

Waiting on a clone of source code to DL for more to play with. At least the card is enabled by firmware at a basic level which means more detective work to get it functioning in at least client mode if the above is true and not allowing AP mode. I doubt this is actually the case until exhausting all options to prove it doesn't. The alternative 9274 cards though are pricy north of $500 and only single bands from the looks of it.


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Tech Junky

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Ok, got the adapter working now and showing up as configurable.

Code:
 sudo dmesg | grep ath12
[    6.034284] ath12k_pci 0000:5c:00.0: BAR 0: assigned [mem 0xa1a00000-0xa1bfffff 64bit]
[    6.034307] ath12k_pci 0000:5c:00.0: enabling device (0000 -> 0002)
[    6.035346] ath12k_pci 0000:5c:00.0: Hardware name: wcn7850 hw2.0
[    6.584564] ath12k_pci 0000:5c:00.0: chip_id 0x2 chip_family 0x4 board_id 0xff soc_id 0x40170200
[    6.584572] ath12k_pci 0000:5c:00.0: fw_version 0x1005bc12 fw_build_timestamp 2022-10-11 12:13 fw_build_id QC_IMAGE_VERSION_STRING=WLAN.HMT.1.0-03427-QCAHMTSWPL_V1.0_V2.0_SILICONZ-1.15378.4
[    6.820561] ath12k_pci 0000:5c:00.0 wlp92s0: renamed from wlan0
I cloned the kvalo git and then copied over the bin files to the new directory.

Probably don't need to clone the whole thing though and just DL the bin files and pop them into the hw2.0 directory. I also grabbed the linux-firmware latest package and it helps some other things show up but doesn't have the ath12k directory nor the adapter listed but, before kvalo changed things for the modules it would seem they were originally deployed under ath11k.

Code:
ls -l /lib/firmware/ath12k/WCN7850/hw2.0/
total 4536
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 5812288 Nov 22 09:51 amss.bin
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root   88896 Nov 22 09:51 board.bin
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  299660 Nov 22 09:51 m3.bin
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root   24310 Nov 22 09:51 regdb.bin
Before I was getting an amss.bin error and failing the adapter.
 
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Tech Junky

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Ok... looks like this is ready to rock out in AP mode and showing 320mhz as an option. I would post the txt output but, it's a bit long so attaching instead.

Code:
            EHT MCS/NSS: (0x22222222222222222200000000):
            EHT bw <= 80 MHz, max NSS for MCS 8-9: Rx=2, Tx=2
            EHT bw <= 80 MHz, max NSS for MCS 10-11: Rx=2, Tx=2
            EHT bw <= 80 MHz, max NSS for MCS 12-13: Rx=2, Tx=2
            EHT bw=160 MHz, max NSS for MCS 8-9: Rx=2, Tx=2
            EHT bw=160 MHz, max NSS for MCS 10-11: Rx=2, Tx=2
            EHT bw=160 MHz, max NSS for MCS 12-13: Rx=0, Tx=0
            EHT bw=320 MHz, max NSS for MCS 8-9: Rx=0, Tx=0
            EHT bw=320 MHz, max NSS for MCS 10-11: Rx=0, Tx=0
            EHT bw=320 MHz, max NSS for MCS 12-13: Rx=0, Tx=0
        HE Iftypes: AP
 

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