Xeon Scaleable workstation buying info...

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So i'd posted before with interest in older DDR3 workstations and people steered me in the direction of DDR4. I ended up getting both DDR3 and DDR4 stuff, the oldest a Z600 (for only $35 with a 24" monitor i couldnt pass up) the newest are a couple Z440 and Dell Precision 5810's with v3 (Haswells) or one v4 (Broadwell) Xeons. This is meant to serve for all my experimenting and learning needs this spring.

However I always want to know what to watch for that at some point will be an upgrade, so i'm trying to fill in gaps in my knowledge for where will I go from here whether it happens later this year, or next year.

The next step newer seems to be when the Xeon Scalable series started and these seem to be used in both the newer Dell 5820/7820/7920 and HP G4 Z4 Z6 Z8 type workstations. I'm not against other workstations (Lenovo) if I ever see them I just haven't looked at them at all. I'm assuming used HP and Dell are probably the most affordable and easy to get used servicing parts for/information about.

Some things i'm saying is just because i'm not familiar with changes in the market but maybe people more familiar could fill in my understanding... it looks like Dell drops lower level workstation support (no 3820?) to target mid and higher only, and I see what looks like desktop cpu's in some workstations I guess that's Cascade-Lake X and that High End DeskTop stuff Intel tried.

Dell's numbering schemes always changing confuses me, and how they don't seem to directly match competitors. The Dell 7820 is of interest to me because it's dual socket if I end up needing that, but the 5820 looks like it uses a different cpu W-2000 family. The HP does NOT seem to directly compete as their Z6 midline model has dual sockets instead of a single socket on the Dell, and using the Scalable cpu's instead of the W-2000. The branding of 'Dell XL' on some machines confuses me and I don't know what it means if anything...

Both Dell and HP seem to have different motherboards in the same chassis, like the 5820 says uses X-family and W-family for their midline single socket model. The HP uses W-family and Scalable, an image of the HP motherboard mentions a 2nd cpu riser as there's no socket visible on the board, I assume this is something that if you dont get from the factory might be a PITA to add later due to cooling and other issues but I don't know.

One thing I liked about the Dell's I messed around with so far was it's easy swap and upgradeable PSU which I assume is the same here, and their 'reliable memory technology' thing that can work around a few bad bits of RAM to let you still work. I'm not sure about upgrade cost or if it's as easy to upgrade HP PSU's but I haven't needed to yet.


Does anyone with experience playing around with these era of workstations have suggestions on what to look for when looking beyond the desktop level? I'm always looking for what will give me the higher affordable RAM capacity, more pcie lanes, and a bunch of affordable cpu cores. I'm running Adobe CC fine on my Broadwell now, but at some point when I upgrade it will either be go Intel 12th generation with like 128gig of ram, or looking at one of these used workstations which might give more performance for the same/less money, or give more pcie lanes and x16 slots than I can find on any desktop board for virtualization and AI playing around.

What would you go with for the money? (either now or where you expect it to be in like a year)
 

CyklonDX

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Nov 8, 2022
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How much money?

T5820 very limited in terms of cpu, and pcie lanes.
T7820 psu limitations - it only offers max of 2x 6pin in terms of power, it will struggle with any true dual 8pin.
T7920 is very nice, plenty of pcie, good motherboard layout.

I don't have exp with hp, but i did hear their psu's were problems. (they are also cheapest, and likely have problems with power distribution as its done through motherboard itself - so likely forget running very top end cards that require 400+W.)


From the listed ones, i would pick t7920, it has a lot of upgrade potential.
If you do not need a lot of pcie slots, and not interested in lot of cores with ram this might not be for you though.


If i had to buy a workstation system for my needs right now, i'd say i'd go with t7920 over any desktop build.
I would want to spend no more than $1k for t7920 dual gold 6154 and 128G ram.

// The big cons of desktop boards is amount of pcie slots, and pcie lanes.
My basic platform requirement is:
16+ cores
512GB ram or more (optane persistent memory support is a +)
4-6x pcie x8-16 (3x gpu's, 1-2x sas controller, 1x 4x nvme bifurcation card, more, faster is a plus)
PSU/PDB with at least 6x 8pin
Decent air cooling, and decent control over the fans.
// T7920 kinda meets those requirements, though personally i prefer supermicro as i'll have the case for use in future projects ( 7049GP-TRT ), while with dell or hp you are stuck with what you got.
 
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Money I haven't even looked, I just know theyre the newer models of things like the 5810/Z440 I already got very affordably, so at some point i'll be looking at either the 5820/7820 or Z4/Z6/Z8 levels. It's that or Intel 12th gen as my next future upgrade. You can finally run enough RAM easily on a desktop now that even 8k footage and After Effects may not need a workstation anymore/i'm sure i'd go at least 128gig DDR5 (as one of my machines has 64gigs right now).

Thanks for your observations - anything from people with experience can help me. Didnt know HP's have PSU issues, any idea if it's just that era/the gen 4 Z4 Z6 type, or also older ones? (as I just got a number of Z440's, a Z420 and a Z600) Wondered if higher ones (Z6/Z8 or in the older a Z640/Z840) has a better PSU.

PSU hacking in an ATX isnt out of the question, I doubt i'd be the only one whose ever considered. Cases i'm not too concerned about/i'm not above transplanting everything into an oversized case and fabbing some mounts if I have no alternative.

I think I can use Optane with the Scaleable era of cpu's so that's not off the table, I think Optane still works with v3 Ice Lake Xeons which I think are comparable to intel 10th gen comet lake - but I read some oddity that it's not supported on all cpu's/some its disabled or somesuch...

My platform interests are fairly similar - I say interests because desktops are catching up enough with cores/mem that above 4k video editing is no big deal anymore. The only things stretching it are playing with After Effects (which i'm no expert in), wanting to play with AI, and possible virtualization uses. (i'm a fan on 2-3 seat multiseat builds so that when it's only one user they can use all available power) The main thing forcing me to move to a newer cpu/mobo/workstation is when Adobe starts forcing newer instruction sets/features as required.
 

CyklonDX

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Didnt know HP's have PSU issues, any idea if it's just that era/the gen 4 Z4 Z6 type, or also older ones?
No clue, all i've ever heard that psu dies and kills motherboard as motherboard also servs as power distribution board - it may also be impossible to hack the psu to provide more power for potential gpu's.

While its possible with dells to buy custom power distribution board to provide more 6-8pin connectors.
 
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They def exist - Cables - Branded PC and Server Cables - HP Compaq Cables - MODDIY - at least for like Z400 Z420 Z440 and a bunch of servers, I dont see the Z4/Z6 but they might still be newish for most tinkerers. I'll have to look into which ones have problems, thanks for the heads up.

Where do you get a custom Dell distribution board? The only thing i'd ever heard is that the really high ie 1300w psu has something different than the lower wattage supplies even tho they technically plug in identically.
 

CyklonDX

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There were people selling them some time ago - i think you need to specifically look for system model and/or chat with chinese if they could make you one.
 
Ok.. well to share a tidbit in case it's useful to anyone else, it seems like Dell PSU's for those workstations like the 5810 which I have a few of are pretty compatible, you can go from a 430w or whatever the bottom one is right up to the 1300w which is meant for the 7810 - it physically plugs in, but either there is some additional small power distribution board (I forget it's name) or between there and the motherboard that is both rated for the higher power, and which has additional connections from the factory for whats a 3-4 gpu configuration. They might be cloning/knocking off those because i'm not sure where else to get that part offhand - i'm still learning as I go. I dont think having the 1300w psu by itself causes any problems, but the wiring between the slide-in harness-thing and where the mobo is isn't made to draw more power than either the 685w (which I upgraded to) or another which I thought was closer to 850-900 as the normal top PSU option for the mid-range Dell.

If anyone has some info on the newer Xeon Scaleable running Dell and HP stuff tho feel free to chime in.
 

CyklonDX

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There are also lenovo workstations *lenovo ws have similar problems with mobo serving as power distribution - but never heard of them failing.
P520 is weak W-21xx xeon = T5820
P620 threadripper box
P720 1-2nd gen scalable (but has fewer power plugs, poorer cooling on 2nd cpu) ~> very cheap = T7820
P920 1-2nd gen scalable (has a lot of power plugs) = Dell T7920
 
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Nnyan

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I can only speak on the Dell T7910/20s, HP Z8G4 and Lenovo P920 but they are very nice units and well built. The P920 is overboard build quality at the cost of it being heavy. I would say that they all have their own quirks but I liked the HP the least.
 
By all means if people want to share more specifics of the Lenovo i'd like to hear them... Dell and HP information is alot more popular, I know almost nothing about Lenovos if they should be in my potential buy list or not. I saw one at the local computer recycler but knew nothing about model numbers, unique features they might have (the way that I liked Dell's one minute power supply swap/upgrade and 'reliable memory tech' letting you use bad ram patching around it in any OS), or what might make them better than the Dell/HP alternatives.