The Evergreen Topic - OEM drives with non-OEM controllers, and vice versa

[SebastianMWS]

Greetings everyone,

Been a while since you last heard from me, posting a few questions and answers (IBM 25R8071, LSI SAS3444E and related) in the "LSI RAID Controller - HBA Equivalency Mapping" thread. I just checked that thread to see how it's doing, and I'm most pleased to see it's still doing well indeed. Even more so as at least one member (Junior Member 'willko') benefited from finding this page, with info he needed for flashing his SAS3444E.

This time around my trouble is this one:

I recently fell into a widespread eBay trap, as unsuspected victim buying Seagate Constellation 2.5" 500GB SAS drives (ST9500430SS) for my external storage - backup and photo archive. Ending price was a bargain, which sadly turned into yet another hopeless search for "needle in a haystack" kind of informations.

It turned out (after Auction End, of course) that the drives are in fact IBM OEM - FRU:42D0708 (a.k.a. Seagate Constellation with IBM Firmware), offered in their System x server product line.

Anyway - long story told short :

I now have an LSI SAS3442E-R SAS HBA (original LSI, not HP version), which I plan to flash with IT-Firmware, as soon as I finish and run my build for the first time. What I don't know, is whether these IBM branded (OEM Firmware) SAS drives will work with my LSI SAS3442E-R, and if they do (I pray for a miracle..), I wonder whether the performance and/or functionality will be in any way limited or degraded ?!

I wish I knew if the drives can at least be flashed with original Seagate Firmware, but that's an answer I sure won't get from Seagate directly (tried that, and failed..) - once they sell the drives to OEMs, they literally deny their existence, and refuse to offer any kind of even most modest assistance.

Thanks in advance to any good soul, with a godsend word of reassurance !

Kind regards,

Sebastian

P.S.: A modest suggestion to admin: This kind of posts are crowding many forums all around (Seagate, IBM, Dell...), and with very very few exceptions, all those poor fellas usually don't receive any helpful replies, or non even. It's just my humble recommendation for a STICKY thread.

 

[mobilenvidia]

The drives should work in any Original Controller, LSI Adaptec etc.

An opposing OEM controller may not allow the drive to work.
IBM were known to only allow IBM OEM drives on their controllers, I think the latest FW allowed other drives also.
It would be detrimental for LSI to not allow OEM drives to work on their controllers.

Basically the Controller would pick what drives to allow, not the drives choosing which controller.

As for HDD performance they should be very similar, the IBM branded FW is probably for their SAS controllers to recognise the drives as IBM originals and hence work

 

[SebastianMWS]

The drives should work in any Original Controller, LSI Adaptec etc.

An opposing OEM controller may not allow the drive to work.
IBM were known to only allow IBM OEM drives on their controllers, I think the latest FW allowed other drives also.
It would be detrimental for LSI to not allow OEM drives to work on their controllers.

Basically the Controller would pick what drives to allow, not the drives choosing which controller.

As for HDD performance they should be very similar, the IBM branded FW is probably for their SAS controllers to recognise the drives as IBM originals and hence work

Thank you mobilenvidia, this is a huge relief ! It's actually exactly what I thought it should have been the case, but without knowing for sure ... there are dozens of user posts on Dell and HP forums, for example, where people are complaining about inability to use Seagate originals in their PowerEdge and ProLiant servers, as they are either not recognized, or there are all sorts of errors appearing during boot-up sequence, even server crashes are mentioned a few times. The "other-way-around" route does seem less problematic, but as a Seagate Tech Support replied in their response - they have no control (officially that is, of course they know the details, off the record...) over changes OEMs do in their proprietary Firmware, flashed to "raw" Seagate drives.

Thanks again, much obliged !

Kind regards,

Sebastian

 

[SebastianMWS]

'evening all,

I just thought to give it one more try, and perhaps succeed to motivate all of you who might have personal experience with these IBM OEM drives, or any other latest model IBM/Seagate SAS drives, to contribute your results on this forum. Let me get this straight - the reply I received from mobilenvidia is perfectly credible and no doubt makes sense, but my doubts are still present. Without having first hand experience to back up no matter how probable theory, there's still some potentially dangerous guessing, about entire range and purpose of functions that OEM Firmware was programmed for. That eBay buyer I bought the drives from agreed to wait till tomorrow, leaving me some more room to get at least one more solid confirmation, about the trouble-free nature of IBM drives, and hopefully their full unlimited performance with LSI HBAs and HW controllers.

Thank you all in advance !

Kind regards,

Sebastian

 

[Patrick]

So I know the big storage guys tweak firmware so they do not have things like the drive firmware trying heroic recoveries (think TLER.) You want as few of these things trying to do error correction as possible so you do not have an OS doing one thing, a controller doing another, and a drive doing yet another without them all knowing about the others' activities.

Where you get pinched is when you have a drive that does not work with a card. I have never had an OEM IBM drive so I am not sure.

The other big question is one of warranty and how much would it cost you to replace a drive that failed (may be higher than your current purchase price) versus how much you are going to save with these and how many you think will fail.

 

[SebastianMWS]

So I know the big storage guys tweak firmware so they do not have things like the drive firmware trying heroic recoveries (think TLER.) You want as few of these things trying to do error correction as possible so you do not have an OS doing one thing, a controller doing another, and a drive doing yet another without them all knowing about the others' activities.

Where you get pinched is when you have a drive that does not work with a card. I have never had an OEM IBM drive so I am not sure.

The other big question is one of warranty and how much would it cost you to replace a drive that failed (may be higher than your current purchase price) versus how much you are going to save with these and how many you think will fail.

Thank you Patrick,

I appreciate your thoughts. I wouldn't worry so much about the warranty issue, as the drives were bought of the eBay anyway ("as new", only served for testing purposes), though I shall ask the seller if there's any warranty left. They were 40 EUR a piece, worth every penny if they work as I'm hoping they do.

Regarding the TLER, as in having this feature or not - I'm not sure how well it plays with Linux MDADM Raid anyway, so perhaps having less really is more in this case.

To sum up; Although I don't like at all to be a "guinea pig", I will probably go for it and take my chances. The results will be posted here (might take a while), for benefits of others who might wanna try these drives, but I will most certainly not post any of my findings on IBM forum - they "stood me up" big time, about 80 views and not a sound. So be it.

Kind regards,

Sebastian

 

[mobilenvidia]

The IBM HDD's are going to work quite happily in the LSI board, they may possibly not like being in a Dell or HP boards due to the IBM Firmware, but this is of no issue to you.

I may also get Constellation drives, you trying them first will give us all an idea to go ahead or not

Now bring us back good news.

 

[SebastianMWS]

The IBM HDD's are going to work quite happily in the LSI board, they may possibly not like being in a Dell or HP boards due to the IBM Firmware, but this is of no issue to you.

I may also get Constellation drives, you trying them first will give us all an idea to go ahead or not

Now bring us back good news.

Thank you once more mobilenvidia. For some reason I can't really explain, your encouragements do instill confidence and optimism.

There's a funny thing about these OEM drives (not just IBM, but DELL HP and other as well); they are usually much more expensive than their original retail counterparts, yet occasionally they can be had for a laugh, referring to offerings found at IT resellers - mostly on eBay; it is true that most of these resellers are stubbornly pushing the "enterprise market prices", for new and used drives ("refurbished", just who are they kiddin'...), whether they sell any or not. They appear to be indifferent (discount offers are ridiculous). Every now and then though, a few smart IT resellers come around, offering large amounts of surplus equipment at SALE price (often new/unused, kept as spares for years, then overnight redundant due to upgrade), knowing what eBay is all about - huge number of potential buyers, zero cost for advertising - and how earning "something" always beats "nothing", or worse even - having expenses for keeping unwanted stuff on the shelves. Those few honest sellers, who are genuinely involved into recycling business, not just for quick profit (buy cheap, blow the dust, sell expensive..), may even offer a warranty, no matter how limited, and sometimes even a basic technical assistance.

Will keep you posted as this story enters the next chapter ...

Kind regards,

Bostjan