Small and cheap laptop recommendations

[pcmoore]

Hello all.

I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations (or anti-recommendations) for a small and cheap Windows 10 laptop? I don't need anything substantial as this is just a system to keep on my electronics bench for various odds and ends; lots of use as a serial terminal as well as host for various Windows only tools (configuration tools, timing analysis tools, etc.). I'd prefer something that is thin, decent screen sized between 10"~14" (~13" would be ideal), with modest storage (it need not be fast, but something that is easily upgraded would be nice). Decent WiFi is important, and a physical Ethernet jack would be a plus but not a requirement. I would like at least two USB ports (at least one should be USB 3+), with a USB-C port being a nice-to-have. Battery life doesn't have to be tremendous as I wouldn't be far from power, but four to six hours on a change would be nice. Charging over USB-C would be a big win. Finally, bonus points are awarded for durability as this thing is going to live in/around my workbench and while I'm not going to try and damage it, stuff happens.

Any thoughts?

 

[Stephan]

For the last 10 years I went out to clients with a Thinkpad T60p. Last year I looked in the 2000+ EUR range for a replacement (Lenovo, Dell, HP, Microsoft, Huawei, LG) but found nothing justifying the price. Every device had some malus I didn't want to live with - for this price level that is. So I shopped around and settled for an Acer Swift 1 SF114-32 with 8 GB RAM (Amazon edition, not sure) and 256 GB SSD for 500 EUR plus tax for the time being, until I could make up my mind.

A month later I said screw that plan and fully installed the Acer and kept it for my main machine. Why? Not cheap (there are full plastic 300 EUR laptops...) but inexpensive for what you get. The 8 GB RAM model is enough for my purposes when away on assignment (I work in IT). Also 8 GB here means Dual Channel, faster than 4 GB versions. Can't add RAM though. CPU is a Pentium N5000, a Gemini Lake SoC with Goldmont Plus cores (no hyperthreading). Performance is around Nehalem level i.e. early Core i5 but on 1/8th the power budget. A far cry from the old Atoms and also a big step up from Goldmont (non-Plus). Really surprising how snappy the machine is. No idea what Intel was thinking just adding "Plus" to the name of a chip that runs +30% fast than predecessor. Too funny. 256 GB SSD (SanDisk X600 M.2 SD9SN8W-256G-1014). I think later models switched to NVMe, so even better there. Need to be aware of NVMe/SATA type should you ever want to replace this card. Yes, SSD not soldered onto board, unlike Apple, where one faulty motherboard resistor will take all your data with it because you can't access them anymore. Stupid. AP15O5L battery from Panasonic lasts anywhere from idle 14 hours (display full brightness, machine just sitting there) up to 106 hours (!) with display off and only CPU+wifi running at around 576mW power, while logged in over SSH. That is around 4.4 days. Charge time empty to full 2 hours (no USB charging though). In LCD panel lottery I scored the BOE NV140FHM-N48, a crisp IPS matte 1080p 60fps panel. No bad pixels. Sound ALC256 works good, nothing others could do better. Wifi is Intel AC 9560 and will do on 802.11n around 21 MByte/s TCP throughput. Don't have an AC access point to push this further. Bought an ethernet dongle for USB which I rarely use. Bluetooth 5 support, excellent. Silent device, no fans, no coil whine (hello Dell...). Comes with TDP set at 8W from factory (normally 6W), one can raise it to 10W with compile stress test max temp increase from 63deg to 73deg C (max 100degC so good headroom). Kaby Lake level video decoders on chip, no framedrops in player or browser. AES on the Pentium N5000 is fast enough to steal only 10 MB/sec from 500 MByte/s read and 200 MByte/s write performance with disk encryption. Webcam is so-so and will do 1280x720 at 30fps max. No super high quality there, good enough for me. 3 USB-A and 1 USB-C is also plenty compared to laughable 1-2 USB-C you get these days with so called "high end machines". Weight 1.4 kg because everything is aluminum, adequate. I like the keyboard, might be matter of taste. In the office I rather use a clicky mechanical keyboard.

Another week later I deleted Windows 10 Home that came with it and installed Arch Linux with i3 desktop. Pretty much perfect Linux support. The CPU needs a recent kernel (5.6.4+ would be best) to squash some GPU driver bugs and also recent microcode (0x32 from 2019-08-28) because there was some unspecified bug causing crashes in Google Chrome. Because the chip was afaik designed in Austin, TX not Haifa, Israel the chip does need some Spectre/Meltdown workarounds, but to me it feels like it needs only a fifth of what normal Core/Xeon CPUs need. I tested jellyfish-140-mbps-4k-uhd-hevc-10bit.mkv and jellyfish-55-mbps-hd-h264.mkv high bandwidth test videos on Linux, no frame drops. Spent 4-5 days optimizing the system some more, now runs like a greased weasel. Couldn't be happier for that money.

In case you want to increase TDP to 10 watts on Linux (+14% in full stress 4-core compilation CPU speed from 1895 MHz to 2161 MHz; verify using turbostat):

wrmsr 0 0x610 0x00008f0000dd8a00
iotools mmio_write32 0xfed170a8 0x00dd8a00

As ethernet USB I bought an AX88179 adapter for a few euros. Compatible with every major OS, does full gigabit. As bag I chose a "Dicota Smart Skin 13-13.3 inch" neoprene bag. Tight but correct fit. Irrelevant if device sits in lab all day of course.

 

[BoredSysadmin]

Second ThinkPad series - not the cheapest, but robust machines should you accidentally drop one. Of course, not tank-proof as these were built in the IBM era, but still very decently built machines. I scored a free T430S with upgraded memory as an SSD drive, and besides its fugly TN screen - it's a great laptop. Bay of the flea should have plenty of used thinkpads

 

[gregsachs]

I''ve been using a Thinkpad 11e for about 5 years now, ~200 when I got it. Only 11 ", but win pro/8gb/ ssd. I would like a better screen on it. Battery is starting to die now, so considering upgrade/replacement. Like the size for travel with my work laptop. Has ethernet as well, and built fairly robust for the educational market.

 

[Jannis Jacobsen]

I can recommend this model:
e7240 | eBay
12.5" screen, lightweight, wifi and rj45 jack +++

The Latitude E7240 is a very good laptop that still works for a lot of stuff

-jannis

 

[WANg]

Hello all.

I was wondering if anyone has any recommendations (or anti-recommendations) for a small and cheap Windows 10 laptop? I don't need anything substantial as this is just a system to keep on my electronics bench for various odds and ends; lots of use as a serial terminal as well as host for various Windows only tools (configuration tools, timing analysis tools, etc.). I'd prefer something that is thin, decent screen sized between 10"~14" (~13" would be ideal), with modest storage (it need not be fast, but something that is easily upgraded would be nice). Decent WiFi is important, and a physical Ethernet jack would be a plus but not a requirement. I would like at least two USB ports (at least one should be USB 3+), with a USB-C port being a nice-to-have. Battery life doesn't have to be tremendous as I wouldn't be far from power, but four to six hours on a change would be nice. Charging over USB-C would be a big win. Finally, bonus points are awarded for durability as this thing is going to live in/around my workbench and while I'm not going to try and damage it, stuff happens.

Any thoughts?

I myself use a 2014 MacBook Air 11 as my small/cheap machine. Core i5-4260U, 8GB RAM (not upgradeable, so make sure you get the 8GB model as it's the max), 256GB SSD (you can buy adapters that would allow you to use standard Samsung (preferred) NVMe drives later), 802.11ac wifi, 2 USB ports, Magsafe2 (but you can buy USB-C PD to Magsafe2 adapters easily, which is what I use to power mine. Mine even works with the Ravpower PD Pioneer USB-C battery pack for extended range). Slap on a Bootcamp partition for Win10 (or format it for Windows only) and you should be pretty much set.

The big advantage is okay performance (Haswell-U should be fine for most tasks), pricing (You can find a 2013 model (which is nearly identical to the 2014 - the difference between an i5-4250U/4260U or an i7-4650U for both) for about 350), resilient chassis (its made out of milled aluminum so it can take some dings and weather things that would've scratched cheap plastic coated machines) and excellent portability (I think of it as like an iPad Pro with a keyboard/trackpad built-in). It's also somewhat repairable (I had the LCD assembly swapped out/replaced in one of my machine in less than 20 minutes). The pre-2016 Apple keyboard has good tactile feedback, and the large glass touchpad makes for an excellent user interface (I prefer it to the twitchy-as-hell keyboard/touchpad on my Lenovo X1 Carbon).

The downside is the large bezel around the rather ho-hum screen (1366x768 TN panel, decent for its time but not quite as good as a modern machine), the possible need to swap out the battery for a new one (mine has a battery that runs 3 hours, but 50 bucks will net you OEM batteries that gives you around 5), and no SD card port (which can be super-useful if you interface with cameras and portable devices on a regular basis). 2 USB3 ports and a combo Thunderbolt 2/MiniDP port means that you'll need to keep a USB3->ethernet adapter around if you want wired connectivity, and a MiniDP to HDMI dongle for driving a second monitor (I use one with my bench portable LCD). Those tend to be fairly cheap nowadays, though.

The 2015 (which I also have) is a Broadwell-U. About 10% faster, comes with a faster PCIe bus (so NVMe SSD upgrades are an even better bang for the buck) but is otherwise almost identical. That one is more rare and commands a bit of an unjustifiable premium on evilbay. I got mine for about 400 (lowballing best offers). Add a USB-C to Magsafe adapter, a USB-PD battery pack, an external SSD for ISO/service manual PDF storage, a USB-Serial adapter or 2 (one for console ports and one for programming devices like Arduinos, Goteks and Raspberry Pis) - it's a good little machine for bench/data center visit purposes.

 

[LaMerk]

Being a ThinkPad fan, right no my main workstation is X1G2. However, its predecessor was X230. I think it satisfies your requirements, or make them most. It has/can have a decedent 9-cell battery, i5/i7 2nd gen CPU and two SSDs (mSATA and SATA). It has 2 USB3 ports, can have Bluetooth v4 card and 16Gb RAM. Windows 10 does run fast on this hardware. Category:X230 - ThinkWiki

 

[epicurean]

I am a big fan of used dell XPS 13s. The refurbished ones on ebay has never failed me

 

[WANg]

I am a big fan of used dell XPS 13s. The refurbished ones on ebay has never failed me

I beg to differ here. The things to be aware of regarding the XPS13 are:
- They reuse the same name for at least 4 different models (9350/60/70, 9730), so unless you specify which version you are dealing with, they perform rather differently, and indeed, their ports configurations are different.
- The bezel bottom webcam placement (*wooof*, who the hell thought up this one), which lead to some ridiculous issues.
- Models after the 9360 do not have USB-A (or regular USB) ports, so they are like little MacBook Pros in terms of people fishing for dongles to use with standard USB devices
- They are fragile (if you travel with them) and not really meant as enterprise machines (i.e. I won't send them out to the field with sales guys)...companies like CDW do not sell them in bulk. At least with the Dell Latitudes, HP EliteBooks and Lenovo ThinkPads there is a large base of parts that you can turn to. With the XPS? I was never really comfortable dealing with them (similar to the Touchbar MacBooks). But yet, CostCo sold them for the past 4 generations.
- The 4k models are battery vampires (not that the 4k Thinkpads are any better), and Windows 10 doesn't really do a great job of taking advantage of the resolution. It's a bit like the Retina Macs - the extra resoluton is there really to allow more pixels to render text or UI elements, and not necessarily to allow you to cram more into the screen (and for certain things like command prompts or powershell screens, the native rendering makes them so small it's ridiculous).

The company I work for bought a bunch of XPS13 9370 for their EMEA office, while I refuse to buy anything but X1 Carbon Gen 6s for the Americas. I did buy a bunch of XPS15s before I got the okay to order X1 Extremes (much better machines). So far, I got:
a) LCD unit failures due to frayed cables
b) Flex induced LCD panel failures
c) Visiting EMEA sales people begging the MacBook Pro guys for USB-C dongles to take to presentations
d) People taping up their bottom bezels (or putting in slider cameras shutters) because the webcam was in such an awkward spot (and with no built-in shutter to cover them like the Lenovos)...which probably induced either a) or b) because the stress is put on the bottom of the bezel near the hinge rather than the top
d) Overheating/system board failures (not common but at least 3 happened)

I don't like the XPS13/15 series in general, at least the 2018 and 2019 models (I have to support a fleet of them (about 90)), as I can tell you some serious horror stories like the Dell power management unit flipping out and refusing to power up sleeping machines, and not coming back up until you physically open the machine up, pull the battery cable, wait a few seconds and plug it in...just to reset it. Or dealing with runaway touchscreen sensors caused by people eating too close to them (seriously, *ugh*)

 

[epicurean]

Then I count myself lucky to have had no problems with the 3 XPS13 I had over the last 7 years.

 

[TLN]

I got X270 for exactly that: i7-7600, 16Gb ram, 512Gb SSD, installed extra SSD in WAN card place. Comes with FHD screen, USB-C port and couple USB-A ports and ethernet(!!). You can even swap battery if needed. Great little working machine.

 

[pcmoore]

... A month later I said screw that plan and fully installed the Acer and kept it for my main machine. Why? Not cheap (there are full plastic 300 EUR laptops...) but inexpensive for what you get.

Thanks for the note, I'd never considered an Acer before, but it seems to have some pretty serious bang-for-the-buck and looks to be one of the better options in its class. The 8GB RAM model doesn't seem to be around anymore, but 4GB should fit my modest needs.

While looking at the Acer I also noticed that Samsung has a similar model with the Notebook Flash. It looses the metal lid, but gains USB-C charging.

I myself use a 2014 MacBook Air 11 as my small/cheap machine.

While MacBooks are nice machines, some of the software I want to run is Windows-only and I'm not interested in dealing with any sort of emulation/indirection.

The Latitude E7240 is a very good laptop that still works for a lot of stuff

I know some people love their Dell systems, but I've never been a fan of Dell's laptops; call it a personal anti-preference if you will.

Second ThinkPad series - not the cheapest, but robust machines should you accidentally drop one.

I''ve been using a Thinkpad 11e for about 5 years now, ~200 when I got it. Only 11 ", but win pro/8gb/ ssd. I would like a better screen on it.

Being a ThinkPad fan, right no my main workstation is X1G2.

I got X270 for exactly that: i7-7600, 16Gb ram, 512Gb SSD, installed extra SSD in WAN card place. Comes with FHD screen, USB-C port and couple USB-A ports and ethernet(!!).

While I'm not a Dell laptop fan, I am a ThinkPad fan with a long trouble free history with the T and X1 series, albeit mostly running Linux and not Windows. I currently have a X1 for work, another for personal use (both Linux) and my wife has a T for personal use (Windows 10). The problem I have with ThinkPads for this use is the cost; the new models that are cheap, e.g. 11e, tend to have poor screens (<FHD) or other drawbacks, while the models which tick all the boxes tend to be 2x the cost of the Acer or Samsung models mentioned above (although you get much more with the ThinkPads).

That said, I somewhat forgot about the X models, the X270 seems to be just about perfect. Now if I can find one cheap ...

Ultimately I think I need to decide if I'm okay with a second hand ThinkPad, or a new Acer/Samsung at roughly half the price.

 

[WANg]

Thanks for the note, I'd never considered an Acer before, but it seems to have some pretty serious bang-for-the-buck and looks to be one of the better options in its class. The 8GB RAM model doesn't seem to be around anymore, but 4GB should fit my modest needs.

While looking at the Acer I also noticed that Samsung has a similar model with the Notebook Flash. It looses the metal lid, but gains USB-C charging.

While MacBooks are nice machines, some of the software I want to run is Windows-only and I'm not interested in dealing with any sort of emulation/indirection.

While I'm not a Dell laptop fan, I am a ThinkPad fan with a long trouble free history with the T and X1 series, albeit mostly running Linux and not Windows. I currently have a X1 for work, another for personal use (both Linux) and my wife has a T for personal use (Windows 10). The problem I have with ThinkPads for this use is the cost; the new models that are cheap, e.g. 11e, tend to have poor screens (<FHD) or other drawbacks, while the models which tick all the boxes tend to be 2x the cost of the Acer or Samsung models mentioned above (although you get much more with the ThinkPads).

That said, I somewhat forgot about the X models, the X270 seems to be just about perfect. Now if I can find one cheap ...

Ultimately I think I need to decide if I'm okay with a second hand ThinkPad, or a new Acer/Samsung at roughly half the price.

Eeeeeh. I used to have Acers (Aspire Timeline 1810, Aspire V5-171). The problem there is chassis flex and easy-to-scruff finish, and their often dinky touchpad. The Samsung...eh, only slightly better (I had a 9 series first gen Ultrabook). Depending on how you use it, they don't wear all that well, either.

The MacBook Air can run Windows natively (bootcamp) and bootcamp driver packages are available, but yeah, not everyone's cup of tea.

As for the ThinkPads, it really depend on your past experience with them. I started out with the 560E/240, and went all the way to the X220/T430. In my opinion, something changed after the "3". T440/X240 just feels different (might be the redesigned keyboard, the touchpad, I don't know and am not sure), and I stopped buying them. I actually do not use my X1 Carbon Gen 6 all that much, especially when compared to the Macbook Air 11. The keyboard feels spongy and the trackpad not very precise. When I am not on my MBA11s I fall back to my HP EliteBooks (2560p/2170p). Decent machines, solid, very accessible and decent parts supply - if I look for a Windows machine on the cheap I'll probably gun for an off-lease EliteBook 735G5 or an 830G6.

 

[epicurean]

@WANg any tips on where to get a good priced elitebook 830G6?

 

[epicurean]

The Lenovo x13 and T14s look similar. Any suggestions to which is better with regards to upgrades/repair?

 

[986box]

I remember fondly using T300 series with OS/2. Now I have both T60 and T430s with i7. T430s built quality can’t be compared to T60. Only issue I have with T430s is the location of the function key. If only it’s placement is swapped with Ctrl key. I7 model is the one to get to ensure usability years later.

My T60 is still in good condition and hinges are still tight but I don’t use it anymore.

 

[986box]

Here are 2 deals under $1k. HP is under 14”
Lenovo Yoga

HP Envy

 

[Terry Kennedy]

I am a big fan of used dell XPS 13s. The refurbished ones on ebay has never failed me

I have a bunch of 10-year-old+ Dell Studio 1558s (in fact, I'm on the road typing this reply on one now). There are a zillion different configs (after all, Dell sold these with over 200 different lid styles alone), but it is possible to find / build one with an insane configuration. This one has 16GB RAM, 4G cellular data, AX WiFi6, Blu-ray burner, 1920 x 1080 matte screen, backlit keyboard, yadda-yadda. Building one isn't for the faint of heart (1558s have a well-deserved reputation for melting, there are no official Windows 10/11 drivers, etc.)

If you're interested in how I did this, start here.

 

[Wasmachineman_NL]

I have a bunch of 10-year-old+ Dell Studio 1558s (in fact, I'm on the road typing this reply on one now). There are a zillion different configs (after all, Dell sold these with over 200 different lid styles alone), but it is possible to find / build one with an insane configuration. This one has 16GB RAM, 4G cellular data, AX WiFi6, Blu-ray burner, 1920 x 1080 matte screen, backlit keyboard, yadda-yadda. Building one isn't for the faint of heart (1558s have a well-deserved reputation for melting, there are no official Windows 10/11 drivers, etc.)

If you're interested in how I did this, start here.

Those early 2010's Inspirons/Studios were the last well-built consumer Dells IMHO.

Of course, you can't compare them to a €7k M6500 Covet from the same era like I have.

 

[WANg]

Powerbook G4 12 - runs Illustrator CS2 just fine.