Riser board for the M90q with NVMe M.2 connector and much more

[radu.sctin]

Hello all,

[later edit] Got great support form the community on this and since the post below, the project has advanced. For anyone who is curious it is available on the GitHub repo. If you are interested in getting one, also see the the Issues/Discussions sessions there.

I do have one request: Once you get it working, post the NVMe that you are using with it here or on GitHub and I will add it to the readme so that we can make a compatibility list of SSDs.

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Thought that this could merit the attention of this forum. I am the creator of the PowerRiser board for the M720q/M920q/x Lenovo tiny. Due to popular demand and the fact that I scored a couple of m90q devices (Gen 1 - I5-10th gen) from a liquidation sale, I started working on a version of the power riser for the M90Q tiny gen 1 and maybe gen 2, however I am going through a bit of a struggle with the speeds.

The proprietary connector for the m90q is a bit more complex than the one for the M720q/M920q and has couple of more desirable features that may help me squeeze more performance out of these machines. Besides that, the sassy has different folds and the positions of the connectors need to be adjusted.

The first prototype of the m90q version has been created and now I am in the process of testing it. Aside from the fan connector interfering with the chassis and a couple of miss-routed low frequency traces, the prototype works well and both the x8 PCIe and the NVMe is recognized by the system. Now, the problem comes with the NVMe detection. The PCH detects this device as PCIe4 capable but it gets downgraded to PCIe3 speeds. (lspci LnkSta and LnkCap on Ubuntu). The R/W speeds using fio are consistent with PCIe3 speeds.

Looking at the spec sheet of the gen 1, I am not sure if it is somehow limited to gen3 PCIe or there is something wrong with my routing and during the initial negotiation phase of the PCIe on startup it gets downgraded from PCIe gen4 to gen3. Lscpci LnkCap says that the PCH is gen 4 capable though. The BIOS of the device is quite limited and did not find an option to force it to PCIe4 speeds.

I know for certain that the gen 2 M90q is advertised as PCIe4 capable but I do not have access to such a device and cannot test. On the electrical side, I have tested the board with a spectrum analyzer and the trace impedance are all within the spec required for PCIe4. If nothing else, this adds more to the confusion.

Do you know of any way I can thoroughly test this?

 

[SteveFP]

I just bought one for my m90q gen 6. Is this going to work? If no i would be happy to help get it working for a gen 6 device. The ability to have a 4th NVMe drive, as well as a 10 gig adapter is way cool.

 

[servethebasement]

I also got an M90q recently and I am also interested in this project. I think the Q470 chipset only is PCIe 3.0 according to intel ARC so your testing seems to match. I don't know why it would be detected as PCIe 4 compatible. Same goes for the 10th gen Processors that fit inside. They are also PCIe 3.0 only.
For M90q Gen 2 the chipset (Q570) is also PCIe 3.0 only. But the processors 11th gen are PCIe 4.0 capable.

 

[radu.sctin]

I just bought one for my m90q gen 6. Is this going to work? If no i would be happy to help get it working for a gen 6 device. The ability to have a 4th NVMe drive, as well as a 10 gig adapter is way cool.

Hello, Please DO NOT plug the board in Gen 3 M90q PCs or newer. The Gen 3 motherboard connector no longer sources 3.3V and 12V form the motherboard to the riser and it only sources 20V. Also, the pinout is not the same. Doing this would be a great way to damage your device.

This board is intended for Gen1 and Gen2 *only*.

I am looking into building one for the newer generations to continue the trend, but it is difficult to get one into a reasonable price point. Also, difficult to test and validate it since there are no valid schematics available for now.I can only rely on a board-view.

 

[radu.sctin]

I also got an M90q recently and I am also interested in this project. I think the Q470 chipset only is PCIe 3.0 according to intel ARC so your testing seems to match. I don't know why it would be detected as PCIe 4 compatible. Same goes for the 10th gen Processors that fit inside. They are also PCIe 3.0 only.
For M90q Gen 2 the chip-set (Q570) is also PCIe 3.0 only. But the processors 11th gen are PCIe 4.0 capable.

Thank you for the interest, I will update this thread as things moved forward. Honestly forgot about it. You are right about the PCIe speeds. I read those chipset datasheets over and over and somehow I missed exactly that. *duh*

 

[SteveFP]

Hello, Please DO NOT plug the board in Gen 3 M90q PCs or newer. The Gen 3 motherboard connector no longer sources 3.3V and 12V form the motherboard to the riser and it only sources 20V. Also, the pinout is not the same. Doing this would be a great way to damage your device.

This board is intended for Gen1 and Gen2 *only*.

I am looking into building one for the newer generations to continue the trend, but it is difficult to get one into a reasonable price point. Also, difficult to test and validate it since there are no valid schematics available for now.I can only rely on a board-view.

Where are you located? Would it speed up development if I shipped you my unit, or I could be your eyes and hands if that helps.

 

[WifiCable]

If you need one quick and don't mind your tiny being a little bigger, you might be able to get away with using the riser from the ThinkCentre Neo Ultra. It uses the same Tiny8 riser slot and has PCIe x8 and an NVMe slot. I don't think anyone has tested it before but the Neo Ultra does use the same motherboard as the M90q Gen 5 (or gen 6 for the Neo Ultra gen 2) so it should work just fine in theory.

 

[SteveFP]

For me, since I have not begun using thus device, I can be flexible.

 

[radu.sctin]

Where are you located? Would it speed up development if I shipped you my unit, or I could be your eyes and hands if that helps.

Located in Eastern Europe Romania. Thank you for the offer! The main hurdle is that there is no schematic available for that generation as it is too new. (or I was not able to find it) If you are in a hurry and you can fit the bigger Neo Ultra board in your setup, @WifiCable 's suggestion is the best one for now.

The riser for Gen3 is in the works.

 

[WifiCable]

@radu.sctin I got a partial but complete enough pinout for the riser slot from a schematic by a friendly hardware hacker in China a while ago here: Tiny8 riser pinout · Issue #1 · qq8322302/P3Tiny-PCIE-Card
As far as I can tell it's a tested working design, though it's hardwiring clkreq. It seems they deleted the reply with the pdf for some reason, but I've reuploaded it on my repository: Tinyriser8/[email]reference-schematic-@qq8322302.pdf[/email] at main · a-little-wifi/Tinyriser8
You can also find my reverse engineering work so far in there, it's mostly in need of a 20V to 12V regulator being added and the pcb layout itself of course.
I don't think I will have the time to finish my design any time soon, but I'm happy to provide what I have so far for reference so that maybe you can make a riser for the community first. It seems to be in demand at least. Just make sure to credit the work you reference.
Also you mentioned earlier you're referencing a boardview? Have you found a boardview file for a machine with the Tiny8 riser slot? Or do you just mean physically looking at existing motherboards?

Also let me know if this thread isn't the place to discuss this, I don't mean to impose.

 

[SteveFP]

@radu.sctin I got a partial but complete enough pinout for the riser slot from a schematic by a friendly hardware hacker in China a while ago here: Tiny8 riser pinout · Issue #1 · qq8322302/P3Tiny-PCIE-Card
As far as I can tell it's a tested working design, though it's hardwiring clkreq. It seems they deleted the reply with the pdf for some reason, but I've reuploaded it on my repository: Tinyriser8/[email]reference-schematic-@qq8322302.pdf[/email] at main · a-little-wifi/Tinyriser8
You can also find my reverse engineering work so far in there, it's mostly in need of a 20V to 12V regulator being added and the pcb layout itself of course.
I don't think I will have the time to finish my design any time soon, but I'm happy to provide what I have so far for reference so that maybe you can make a riser for the community first. It seems to be in demand at least. Just make sure to credit the work you reference.
Also you mentioned earlier you're referencing a boardview? Have you found a boardview file for a machine with the Tiny8 riser slot? Or do you just mean physically looking at existing motherboards?

Also let me know if this thread isn't the place to discuss this, I don't mean to impose.

@radu.sctin I stand ready to help with the Gen6.

 

[radu.sctin]

@radu.sctin I got a partial but complete enough pinout for the riser slot from a schematic by a friendly hardware hacker in China a while ago here: Tiny8 riser pinout · Issue #1 · qq8322302/P3Tiny-PCIE-Card
As far as I can tell it's a tested working design, though it's hardwiring clkreq. It seems they deleted the reply with the pdf for some reason, but I've reuploaded it on my repository: Tinyriser8/[email]reference-schematic-@qq8322302.pdf[/email] at main · a-little-wifi/Tinyriser8
You can also find my reverse engineering work so far in there, it's mostly in need of a 20V to 12V regulator being added and the pcb layout itself of course.
I don't think I will have the time to finish my design any time soon, but I'm happy to provide what I have so far for reference so that maybe you can make a riser for the community first. It seems to be in demand at least. Just make sure to credit the work you reference.
Also you mentioned earlier you're referencing a boardview? Have you found a boardview file for a machine with the Tiny8 riser slot? Or do you just mean physically looking at existing motherboards?

Also let me know if this thread isn't the place to discuss this, I don't mean to impose.

This is a great find! Seems quite similar and it also has a DCDC converter schematic. Hardwiring the CLK pins seems ok to do since the PCH provides a separate CLK for each PCIe port. I have to do my investigation at least on the power side. Seems to simple compared to the risers available online. I will look into it, but first I have to source a machine. As generous as @SteveFP is I am not comfortable to use someone elses machine to test unvetted designs. Changing the power controllers on the lenovo main board is not easy.

The board view I was mentioning is for the Gen3. (Tiny 7) from ELVIKOM forums.

 

[SteveFP]

If you want to prototype a riser board i am happy to install it and let you know how things go.

 

[WifiCable]

This is a great find! Seems quite similar and it also has a DCDC converter schematic. Hardwiring the CLK pins seems ok to do since the PCH provides a separate CLK for each PCIe port. I have to do my investigation at least on the power side. Seems to simple compared to the risers available online. I will look into it, but first I have to source a machine. As generous as @SteveFP is I am not comfortable to use someone elses machine to test unvetted designs. Changing the power controllers on the lenovo main board is not easy.

The board view I was mentioning is for the Gen3. (Tiny 7) from ELVIKOM forums.

Oh wow, I didn't know the M90q Gen 3 NM-D581 boardview was out there, I found the elvikom post for it now. Did you download it? Would you be willing to share it? It would help me (and others) out a lot! I see the M70q Gen 2 NM-D331 schematic is also on there.

 

[radu.sctin]

Oh wow, I didn't know the M90q Gen 3 NM-D581 boardview was out there, I found the elvikom post for it now. Did you download it? Would you be willing to share it? It would help me (and others) out a lot! I see the M70q Gen 2 NM-D331 schematic is also on there.

There are a lot of good schematics there. You have to pay for them though. The boardview files are not verry good, and think that they have some missing parts. But I can share it no problem.

I am wondering though if the FRU number 5C50W00933 for the original riser board is compatible with the Gen 4 and 6. I seem to be finding references that it is. If that is the case, then one would only need to design one more board and since we have the boardview for the gen3...

 

[radu.sctin]

If you want to prototype a riser board i am happy to install it and let you know how things go.

I want to sort out some things on the latest versions first but I will ping you soon Thank you!

 

[WifiCable]

There are a lot of good schematics there. You have to pay for them though. The boardview files are not verry good, and think that they have some missing parts. But I can share it no problem.

I am wondering though if the FRU number 5C50W00933 for the original riser board is compatible with the Gen 4 and 6. I seem to be finding references that it is. If that is the case, then one would only need to design one more board and since we have the boardview for the gen3...

Aw hell yeah, thank you so much. Looks like it has net names for the riser slot, this is amazing and should be enough info to build fully featured risers for Tiny8 up to current gen!

I recently looked into which FRUs of the original risers are compatible with what machine by going over each model in Lenovo's support page and going to the compatible parts listing and documented it here: GitHub - a-little-wifi/TinySecrets: Technical information about small 1L Lenovo, Dell, HP and Acer PCs
I found that there's 2 variants of the Tiny8 x16 riser which share the same PCB but have different parts populated, particularly in relation to the CLKREQ# signal. I can't really tell what the functional difference is but I documented it anyway.
5C50W00933 specifically is the type that connects CLKREQ# directly to PRSNT# as previous riser generations have done, and it's listed in the compatible parts for the M90q gen 3, P360 Tiny, P3 Tiny and P3 Tiny Gen 2.
Since those models cover Tiny8, Tiny9 and Tiny11 (latest gen), I think it's safe to say that a custom Tiny8 riser with a simple direct CLKREQ#-PRSNT# connection should be compatible with all Tiny8-Tiny11 models with the riser slot to date. Here's hoping Lenovo doesn't change the riser slot again soon lol.

 

[WifiCable]

One thing to look out for with Tiny8 though, which I spent a lot of time troubleshooting with someone who had an M90q Gen 3, is that apparently they don't like cards smaller than x8 on the CPU link. Any x4 or x1 card he tried, even a x4 GPU (RX 6400) wouldn't be detected despite working fine in other machines. I thought it was related to the strange CLKREQ# circuit on the Tiny8 riser at first, but he got his hands on both types of the riser and both behaved the same, so we think it's a deliberate firmware lockout to prevent x4 or smaller cards from working. Strangely there is a youtuber who had a x4 RX 6400 working in an M90q gen 3, but we tried the same bios version as he would likely have been using and it didn't change. So it requires some more research.

 

[radu.sctin]

One thing to look out for with Tiny8 though, which I spent a lot of time troubleshooting with someone who had an M90q Gen 3, is that apparently they don't like cards smaller than x8 on the CPU link. Any x4 or x1 card he tried, even a x4 GPU (RX 6400) wouldn't be detected despite working fine in other machines. I thought it was related to the strange CLKREQ# circuit on the Tiny8 riser at first, but he got his hands on both types of the riser and both behaved the same, so we think it's a deliberate firmware lockout to prevent x4 or smaller cards from working. Strangely there is a youtuber who had a x4 RX 6400 working in an M90q gen 3, but we tried the same bios version as he would likely have been using and it didn't change. So it requires some more research.

Interesting. Thanks for the heads-up amd for confirming my suspicions about compatibility. The x8 limitation is an interesting quirk. I will test for it.

I have all the parts list set up mainly and if all goes well I will probably have the first test batch sent to production in 2 weeks or so.

I will keep everyone updated here. Fingers crossed.

 

[WifiCable]

Probably figured out why x4 and smaller cards don't work in Tiny8 (and possibly newer) machines: Tiny8 riser pinout · Issue #1 · qq8322302/P3Tiny-PCIE-Card
Lenovo reversed the x8 link on the riser slot for no good reason, causing x4 cards to be on the link's lanes 4-7 instead of 0-3. Might also have issues with x8 cards that can't cope with lane reversal. I'm surprised it doesn't cause more problems tbh.

The fix would be to either remove the resistor pulling the CFG2 line low which would disable lane reversal, or to design a riser that reverses the x8 link. Designing a riser that way sounds like a huge pain but might be possible.
What I would be more concerned about is how consistent this lane reversal is across different models and generations. It might be necessary to design 2 separate risers. Or it won't be as plug&play as we'd like it to be, if removing the resistor is needed to allow x4 and x1 cards to work.