Problems with a Dell TL4000 SAS tape library + LTO drives

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gargravarr

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These are the drives I got with it, plus mine:

The black label one is the LTO-5 drive out of my PV114. The drive that isn't in a caddy is a known broken LTO-4.

I've now put the middle drive, the LTO-4, in the library. Let's see what happens.
 

gargravarr

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Well, further issues. This TL4000 keeps crashing the SAS card on my NAS. Initially I thought it was overheating - the fan had failed - but now I've replaced the fan, it still causes IO errors and locks up my zpool with minor kernel panics. I don't think this thing is ever going to work for me.
 

Terry Kennedy

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So the LTO-5 drive registers as
IBM ULTRIUM-HH5 H971
I updated the firmware myself using the Dell update packages. Took a while to figure out which one had the LTO-5 firmware in it but it updated to this revision successfully. This shows in dmesg and in ITDT.
That's progress, at least.

There's still no
LUN exposed for the robot when hooked to my NAS, nor does ITDT detect any kind of library. This is pretty weird as it DOES show when connected to the other server via a different card. Wonder if the ASR-7000 series SAS card doesn't support multiple LUNs? Or I need to change a setting?
What is the exact model of the card? Most RAID cards barely support non-disk devices at all. LUNs on SAS are pretty uncommon, although it is a defined part of the spec. If there's a BIOS / setup utility on the card (should show up during POST), see if there are any useful-sounding options there.

Every time I start the library up, however, the thing eventually shows 'Drive Logged Out' whenever I try it with the LTO-5 drive. I did a factory reset as well; it doesn't seem to have helped. Also, the 'Service' user does not work with the password 'SER001'.
Sorry, it should be lower case - ser001.

Before we try getting a drive dump, can you confirm that the "Drive logged out" is happening with multiple drives and multiple sleds? Does it happen if you have a single drive in a different slot? The logged out / FB indicates that the library lost communication with the drive. That normally happens when the drive takes itself offline to perform a recovery function like a drive dump. But it can also mean that there's a problem with the library controller card if it is happening with multiple drives / sleds / slots. Do you happen to have a spare library controller card? There is one on eBay for $29.99 w/ free shipping (search for "tl4000 library controller card"). When swapping the card, you need to have the library powered off and when you power it on, it will ask if it should use the VPD from the library or the card. Tell it to use the library.

There is a cleaning tape in slot 48 which is properly detected. The labelled tapes show up correctly, as do the empty slots, it just takes a long time. The library is in the bottom of my rack on the original rails/shelf so it should be flat.
Have you run the library with the cover off? That will serve 2 purposes - to see if the picker is hanging up or having trouble reading the barcodes and also so you can look at the face of the drive. When you get the "Drive logged out" error from the library, look at the 7-segment display on the drive, particularly the decimal point dot. If the dot is not on or blinking, the drive doesn't think it had a firmware crash, regardless of what the library thinks.
 

Terry Kennedy

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Well, further issues. This TL4000 keeps crashing the SAS card on my NAS. Initially I thought it was overheating - the fan had failed - but now I've replaced the fan, it still causes IO errors and locks up my zpool with minor kernel panics.
If that's the RAID card, we seem to have established that it doesn't like libraries. You're probably going to need to use an additional controller. If you don't already have one, the Dell H200E (12DNW) is a good card at around $25. You can flash it with generic LSI firmware / BIOS if you want the latest code, but be aware that the card LEDs won't work as expected after you cross-flash. Everything else works, though.

I don't think this thing is ever going to work for me.
Where are you located? I'm in the NYC area and have known good spares for all the parts I've mentioned and can do a meet-up if you happen to also be in the NYC area.
 

gargravarr

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If that's the RAID card, we seem to have established that it doesn't like libraries. You're probably going to need to use an additional controller. If you don't already have one, the Dell H200E (12DNW) is a good card at around $25. You can flash it with generic LSI firmware / BIOS if you want the latest code, but be aware that the card LEDs won't work as expected after you cross-flash. Everything else works, though.


Where are you located? I'm in the NYC area and have known good spares for all the parts I've mentioned and can do a meet-up if you happen to also be in the NYC area.
The exact model of the SAS card is an Adaptec ASR-78615. Unfortunately I don't really have the option of a different card because the NAS is an ITX one, so I only have the single expansion slot.

Appreciate the offer but I'm not even in the same country, I'm in the UK!
 

gargravarr

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Before we try getting a drive dump, can you confirm that the "Drive logged out" is happening with multiple drives and multiple sleds? Does it happen if you have a single drive in a different slot? The logged out / FB indicates that the library lost communication with the drive. That normally happens when the drive takes itself offline to perform a recovery function like a drive dump. But it can also mean that there's a problem with the library controller card if it is happening with multiple drives / sleds / slots. Do you happen to have a spare library controller card? There is one on eBay for $29.99 w/ free shipping (search for "tl4000 library controller card"). When swapping the card, you need to have the library powered off and when you power it on, it will ask if it should use the VPD from the library or the card. Tell it to use the library.
I only get the 'Drive logged out' message with the LTO-5 drive. The drives I got with the library tend to allow it to fully initialise. However, I'm now getting errors on the robot positioning...
 

Terry Kennedy

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The exact model of the SAS card is an Adaptec ASR-78615. Unfortunately I don't really have the option of a different card because the NAS is an ITX one, so I only have the single expansion slot.
Since you said you had a zpool, I assume you're using ZFS? A non-RAID card combined with a SAS expander would give you a single-slot solution and likely better performance (and definitely better ZFS error recovery) than the RAID controller, even with JBODs.

Appreciate the offer but I'm not even in the same country, I'm in the UK!
Ok. Let's keep working on the other things remotely, then. More in my next reply.
 

Terry Kennedy

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I only get the 'Drive logged out' message with the LTO-5 drive. The drives I got with the library tend to allow it to fully initialise. However, I'm now getting errors on the robot positioning...
That definitely sounds like the picker is getting stuck. Take the cover off the library and look at the picker gear track and the clear plastic skid strip. If there is any dirt buildup (will usually be black) on the skid strip, carefully clean it with some rubbing alcohol. You don't need to (and shouldn't) lubricate it.

It is fine to operate the library with the cover off - just keep your hands away and don't drop anything in it.
 
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gargravarr

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Since you said you had a zpool, I assume you're using ZFS? A non-RAID card combined with a SAS expander would give you a single-slot solution and likely better performance (and definitely better ZFS error recovery) than the RAID controller, even with JBODs.


Ok. Let's keep working on the other things remotely, then. More in my next reply.
That's correct, the SAS drives in my NAS are in a 6-disk Z2. The ASR-78615 is in HBA mode. I rebooted the NAS for kernel upgrades earlier today and I couldn't see anything in the RAID card config to do with multi-LUNs.
That definitely sounds like the picker is getting stuck. Take the cover off the library and look at the picker gear track and the clear plastic skid strip. If there is any dirt buildup (will usually be black) on the skid strip, carefully clean it with some rubbing alcohol. You don't need to (and shouldn't) lubricate it.

It is fine to operate the library with the cover off - just keep your hands away and don't drop anything in it.
I'll try it. That machine is enormously heavy so pulling it out of the rack requires a lot of arranging...
 

Terry Kennedy

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That's correct, the SAS drives in my NAS are in a 6-disk Z2. The ASR-78615 is in HBA mode. I rebooted the NAS for kernel upgrades earlier today and I couldn't see anything in the RAID card config to do with multi-LUNs.
Ok. As I said, most RAID cards only do HBA mode grudgingly (if at all).

I'll try it. That machine is enormously heavy so pulling it out of the rack requires a lot of arranging...
Be sure that you put it up on feet on the corners of the metal baseplate. It will definitely not work if you just put it down flat.
 
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gargravarr

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So, to share a few more things I've discovered recently through experimenting with my hardware:

First, the robot error was due to the shelf above it (supporting one of my servers) being bent down far enough that the edge contacted the top shell roughly in the centre. The clearance must be pretty fine and the robot was stopping there. Moved the shelf up by one hole in the rack - no further problems.

Second, IBM 3580-series tape drives seem to have two variants, denoted by label colours.

White-label drives are autoloader-compatible. Black-label drives are standalone.

Further within the white-label drives, they're manufacturer-specific. I tried pulling the LTO-6 drive out of my Quantum Superloader and it refused to work in the TL4000. ITDT refused to flash the Dell firmware to it. Vice versa, a Dell drive would not work in the Quantum library, nor would the Quantum firmware be applied. For their physical compatibility, there are a LOT of internal changes that mean these things aren't cross-compatible in the slightest. Damned OEMs.

I'm still searching for a SAS HBA. Question, what's the difference between a SAS HBA and a SAS Expander card? Because from what I can see, a SAS Expander card seems to be what I want - it has lots of SAS ports (I need 2 for the HDDs and more for tapes), usually external ones and usually no RAID controller, just a SAS interface to the system.

Edit: okay, I happened across a listing that explained it much better - despite appearances as a PCIe card, they don't transfer data that way, they use the slot for power, and multiplex data back to a RAID controller or HBA through either internal or external connectors. I guessed that was how an expander worked, but the PCIe interface was confusing.

I'm having additional problems with an ATTO H644 SAS card, both with the libraries and internal SAS drives - it keeps locking up and crashing the entire system (due to me using the SAS drives as boot drives for my test box). And my attempts to swap out the kernel module for ATTO's own is not working at all >_>

However, the libraries work fine with a Dell H200 HBA. With this in a test machine, I was able to sustain 100MB/s read from my NAS over NFS to the tape library and backed everything up onto myriad LTO-3 tapes, even getting tar to execute a script to change tapes when the current one filled up.
 
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Terry Kennedy

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First, the robot error was due to the shelf above it (supporting one of my servers) being bent down far enough that the edge contacted the top shell roughly in the centre. The clearance must be pretty fine and the robot was stopping there. Moved the shelf up by one hole in the rack - no further problems.
I told you...
Second, IBM 3580-series tape drives seem to have two variants, denoted by label colours.

White-label drives are autoloader-compatible. Black-label drives are standalone.
I'm not sure which label you're referring to. The label that says something like "LTO 6 SAS" near the data connector? I have some library drives that are black and some that are white - white LTO-6 SAS, black L3 LVD, etc.

Some generations of drives have a feature switch on the drive that enables / disables the library interface port. This will probably get you started: https://download.lenovo.com/servers_pdf/00y8026.pdf Just be sure to write down any existing switch settings before making changes. If you really want to get into it, look at: Turning an IBM lto6 sas HH drive from library to standalone, how?
Further within the white-label drives, they're manufacturer-specific. I tried pulling the LTO-6 drive out of my Quantum Superloader and it refused to work in the TL4000. ITDT refused to flash the Dell firmware to it. Vice versa, a Dell drive would not work in the Quantum library, nor would the Quantum firmware be applied. For their physical compatibility, there are a LOT of internal changes that mean these things aren't cross-compatible in the slightest. Damned OEMs.
HP is their own kettle of (rotting) fish - they use Tandberg drives in IBM libraries with custom library fimware. I have no idea what Quantum does. Tandberg and Quantum used to make their own drives but now use IBM in their products.

IBM, Lenovo, and Dell personality drives all work in each other's TS3100/TS3200 and re-badged libraries. IBM and Lenovo share the same firmware, Dell firmware is slightly different. The drive will reject firmware with the wrong "personality". I have an IBM LTO6 drive in a Dell TL4000 library and I have a Dell TL4000 library with IBM code (displays "IBM" on the LCD, etc.) by swapping the LCC.

A lot of the "standalone" drives you see for sale are pulls from libraries. That's why there are so many "tray only" library sleds on eBay.
 

gargravarr

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I told you...
Not saying you didn't!
I'm not sure which label you're referring to. The label that says something like "LTO 6 SAS" near the data connector? I have some library drives that are black and some that are white - white LTO-6 SAS, black L3 LVD, etc.
I mean the IBM label on the top of the drive itself. See the picture in this post. The white-label drives are out of the autoloader, while the black-label one is standalone. The label on the back of the sled near the data connector is consistently black in my drives, and all it says is 'L[347]' and 'SAS'.
Some generations of drives have a feature switch on the drive that enables / disables the library interface port. This will probably get you started: https://download.lenovo.com/servers_pdf/00y8026.pdf Just be sure to write down any existing switch settings before making changes. If you really want to get into it, look at: Turning an IBM lto6 sas HH drive from library to standalone, how?
I've seen that. DIP switch number 5 is consistently flipped ON in all the library drives I have, but flipping it ON in a standalone drive does not make it work with a library. There's gotta be some internal differences. Library drives seem to work fine standalone, but not vice-versa.
HP is their own kettle of (rotting) fish - they use Tandberg drives in IBM libraries with custom library fimware. I have no idea what Quantum does. Tandberg and Quantum used to make their own drives but now use IBM in their products.
I've seen on eBay that HP libraries (the same rebranded IBM TS3x00 as Dell's) also use IBM drives, but I'm very wary of HP because I know they're ****ing hostile to people not paying them directly...
IBM, Lenovo, and Dell personality drives all work in each other's TS3100/TS3200 and re-badged libraries. IBM and Lenovo share the same firmware, Dell firmware is slightly different. The drive will reject firmware with the wrong "personality". I have an IBM LTO6 drive in a Dell TL4000 library and I have a Dell TL4000 library with IBM code (displays "IBM" on the LCD, etc.) by swapping the LCC.
What's an LCC? Library Controller Card?
A lot of the "standalone" drives you see for sale are pulls from libraries. That's why there are so many "tray only" library sleds on eBay.
Most of what I've seen are the drives in sleds, and they're all demanding very strong money for new-ish generations. I'm considering selling the Superloader and TL2000 I acquired recently and using the proceeds to buy an LTO-5 drive, then building up the TL4000. I've managed to collect 80 tapes totalling over 80TB across various generations; I'd need LTOs 3, 4, 5 and 7 to be able to read/write them all, and I have all except the 5 for the TL series now.
 

Terry Kennedy

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I've seen on eBay that HP libraries (the same rebranded IBM TS3x00 as Dell's) also use IBM drives, but I'm very wary of HP because I know they're ****ing hostile to people not paying them directly...
For the drive generations other than the ones that only IBM manufactures, they most definitely do NOT use IBM drives. The HP LTO-4 drive I saw in a TS3200 sled was a Tandberg mechanism. Neither the IBM nor Dell library firmware knows what to do with this - it just flags it as "unknown drive" and powers the sled off. I don't know if the only difference between the HP and other libraries is the LCC firmware or if there are other differences - I've never seen an HP library chassis.
What's an LCC? Library Controller Card?
Yes.
Most of what I've seen are the drives in sleds, and they're all demanding very strong money for new-ish generations. I'm considering selling the Superloader and TL2000 I acquired recently and using the proceeds to buy an LTO-5 drive, then building up the TL4000. I've managed to collect 80 tapes totalling over 80TB across various generations; I'd need LTOs 3, 4, 5 and 7 to be able to read/write them all, and I have all except the 5 for the TL series now.
If that's a Quantum Superloader 3 (or one its OEM variants), the best advice I can give is "run away screaming". Lots more in my blog here, including my comment that it is “a triumph of engineering over common sense”.
 

gargravarr

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For the drive generations other than the ones that only IBM manufactures, they most definitely do NOT use IBM drives. The HP LTO-4 drive I saw in a TS3200 sled was a Tandberg mechanism. Neither the IBM nor Dell library firmware knows what to do with this - it just flags it as "unknown drive" and powers the sled off. I don't know if the only difference between the HP and other libraries is the LCC firmware or if there are other differences - I've never seen an HP library chassis.
Ah, on closer inspection I can see the 'Made in Germany' on the label of this drive that I thought was IBM: HP MSL LTO5 Ultrium Tape Drive BL540B/695111-001 | eBay
If that's a Quantum Superloader 3 (or one its OEM variants), the best advice I can give is "run away screaming". Lots more in my blog here, including my comment that it is “a triumph of engineering over common sense”.
It is a Superloader 3, and I actually found that exact article when I was looking for ways to get the magazines out without powering it up.

Fair enough that your experience is sour; I actually think it's a neat design. Yes, there's a lot more moving parts, and the conveyor belt/paternoster is an exercise in engineering indulgence, but on paper, it's a heck of a lot simpler. The IBM design requires the robot to move in 2 dimensions and has to be extremely precise - the robot has to be brought to the tape or the drive, and in the TL4000, that's 52 possible positions. And as previously noted, any distortion of the casing is likely to cause the robot to stall. The Quantum design only has the robot move in one dimension to one of three positions (left, right or drive). The tape moves to the robot, also in one dimension (forward or back). Everything has sturdy metal casings around it to hold it in shape. Of course, the downside is obvious - the moving parts take up more space so the Quantum design holds 4 less tapes on each side.

As for the PSU issue, yeah, it sucks that it's not a standard design or that it's difficult to source a drop-in replacement, but assuming the PSU continues to work (switched-mode PSUs are pretty reliable these days), the reliability of the mechanism may win out.
 
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Terry Kennedy

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Ah, on closer inspection I can see the 'Made in Germany' on the label of this drive that I thought was IBM: HP MSL LTO5 Ultrium Tape Drive BL540B/695111-001 | eBay
Sellers seem to like to hide that fact - if they showed a picture of the slot end of the tape drive, it would be obvious as the IBM drives have a 7-segment display and the non-IBM ones just have individual LEDs.
It is a Superloader 3, and I actually found that exact article when I was looking for ways to get the magazines out without powering it up.
:cool:
Fair enough that your experience is sour; I actually think it's a neat design. Yes, there's a lot more moving parts, and the conveyor belt/paternoster is an exercise in engineering indulgence, but on paper, it's a heck of a lot simpler. The IBM design requires the robot to move in 2 dimensions and has to be extremely precise - the robot has to be brought to the tape or the drive, and in the TL4000, that's 52 possible positions. And as previously noted, any distortion of the casing is likely to cause the robot to stall. The Quantum design only has the robot move in one dimension to one of three positions (left, right or drive). The tape moves to the robot, also in one dimension (forward or back). Everything has sturdy metal casings around it to hold it in shape. Of course, the downside is obvious - the moving parts take up more space so the Quantum design holds 4 less tapes on each side.
The Quantum carousel also moves up and down.

IBM could have had their design be a little thinner if they used metal instead of plastic to make the magazines. It hasn't really caught me as I leave 1 RU between devices.

The two flaws I can see in the IBM library are that the screws and nuts holding the magazines together tend to fall apart if an ECO to put blue threadlocker on them hasn't been performed, and I would much prefer the picker lock to be captive rather than going in a storage slot on the back of the library where it can get knocked out and lost. If I get to pick a third one, I'd say that the picker gears should be made out of a much stronger plastic.

I've used libraries of the "room size" type before and they also have their foibles. But they generally have a repair person on site full-time.

As for the PSU issue, yeah, it sucks that it's not a standard design or that it's difficult to source a drop-in replacement, but assuming the PSU continues to work (switched-mode PSUs are pretty reliable these days), the reliability of the mechanism may win out.
The IBM PSU is a unique design but there's a zillion of them for sale out there. Same for library controller cards and the drives themselves (as long as you watch out for OEM lock-in). With the Superloader, it is usually easier/cheaper to buy a whole library with some undesirable tape format and throw the rest away than it is to buy a PSU listed specifically for the Superloader. Hence my article about modifying a standard model.

Aside from PSUs, I find the magazines prone to lock-up and inconvenient to bulk load (in the IBM, eject the magazine and you get 12 convenient slots - with the Superloader you have to feed them in one at a time through the mail slot). They also don't seem to hold up - I've had 5 of them that have gone to electronics recycling due to drive problems or other issues. I have installed around a dozen of the IBM libraries and they're all still working fine.
 

gargravarr

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The Quantum carousel also moves up and down.
It does? I didn't notice, but I took a video of it in action with the cover off, I'll have another look.
IBM could have had their design be a little thinner if they used metal instead of plastic to make the magazines. It hasn't really caught me as I leave 1 RU between devices.
Good if you have a full-size rack - mine is 18U and even that's bigger than I intended, I wanted 12U! I really need to reorganise mine and use more of the back face of the rack...
The two flaws I can see in the IBM library are that the screws and nuts holding the magazines together tend to fall apart if an ECO to put blue threadlocker on them hasn't been performed, and I would much prefer the picker lock to be captive rather than going in a storage slot on the back of the library where it can get knocked out and lost. If I get to pick a third one, I'd say that the picker gears should be made out of a much stronger plastic.
Agreed on the picker lock; I was fortunate to get one with the TL2000s and it's clear how stupidly easy it is to lose. Thanks for the PSA about the magazines; I actually have two TL2000s, one is just a pile of parts but had better faceplates than the complete one, so I swapped the fascias and I think there was already threadlocker on the screws. I may just check again and check the TL4000.
And yes, the gears all being plastic does strike me as a real weakness, especially the gear track that the robot moves side to side on. That seems to be asking to strip if the robot gets jammed.
I've used libraries of the "room size" type before and they also have their foibles. But they generally have a repair person on site full-time.
We have two large Spectra TFinity walk-in libraries at work - 20 tape drives each, and enough TS1160 slots to keep a few hundred PB onsite. And yes, those are absolutely mind-bending when they go wrong. We don't have a repair person, but one of the guys on my team manages them and is well versed in their foibles. Unfortunately it's ONLY him, but he's been training me and another guy to troubleshoot in his absence.
The IBM PSU is a unique design but there's a zillion of them for sale out there. Same for library controller cards and the drives themselves (as long as you watch out for OEM lock-in). With the Superloader, it is usually easier/cheaper to buy a whole library with some undesirable tape format and throw the rest away than it is to buy a PSU listed specifically for the Superloader. Hence my article about modifying a standard model.
Yeah, I can see the Quantum library is not designed to be user-serviceable. It is a lot more compact than the IBM design, even if that also means fewer tape slots. Props to IBM for making most components hot-swappable, though that means a LOT of additional empty space inside the unit and a lot more potential for movement. Good that most of the parts are interchangeable between the 2000 and 4000 though, including cards, drives and PSUs. My TL4000 is fully loaded with dual PSUs and doesn't complain when I only run it from one, so I may just run it that way and keep the other PSU in reserve.
Aside from PSUs, I find the magazines prone to lock-up and inconvenient to bulk load (in the IBM, eject the magazine and you get 12 convenient slots - with the Superloader you have to feed them in one at a time through the mail slot). They also don't seem to hold up - I've had 5 of them that have gone to electronics recycling due to drive problems or other issues. I have installed around a dozen of the IBM libraries and they're all still working fine.
Yeah, the paternoster mechanism is clearly complicated. I figure that since the motor only moves them forward and back, and the rest is mechanical, there's less to go wrong in an unfixable way. If the positioning sensors in the IBM go bad, you're stuffed. The Quantum one seems to be simple microswitches, and the most likely mechanical failures are probably fixable by just repositioning the slots, or even with a bit of glue.
And you can still eject the magazines and fill them manually rather than use the mailslot, but I agree its waaaaay more tedious than the IBM approach - you have to move the mechanism to expose the empty slot to the cutout in the casing, rather than having all empty slots ready to use. Took me far longer to fill the 16 slots in the Superloader than to fill the 48 slots in the TL4000!
 
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Stephan

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A little help please...

I got an IBM TS3100 with stock LTO4 SAS drive and inaccessible drive problem. Not sure yet what the problem is, says "Connecting drive" and nothing happens.

I put a white label LTO6 with DIP 5 on (LDI -> ADI) into the tray, also says "Connecting drive" and nothing happens. I know that LTO6 drive is good though, tested with SAS externally.

What is most likely the fault? Sled? Controller card?

Also what is the procedure to get a standalone IBM drive into a IBM library which I want to use? Set DIP 5 to on and make it wait for set_config using an RS422 adapter? So the reverse what people are doing to use a library drive as standalone.
 

Stephan

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Also I binwalk'ed the firmware, extracted a linux kernel and ramdisk (where is the source code for all of this, señor IBM?), and there are hints in /drv/dcode.exe that there are some licensing options available. Like SME (system managed encryption). Is any of that stuff useful? There is also a string: **lib license enabled** , license %x, enabled %x

Also I think there is a remote code execution possibility (remote root shell), if only I could turn on DHCP on the ethernet port. Sadly it is stuck at static 192.254.0.3. Image references dropbear, but binary was left out.

Found a MAX3232 on the PCB of a dead LTO 5 going to an unpopulated 3-pin SMD location. Smells like GND RX TX for a serial console to the processor.
 

StormX

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I have heard that it is possible to program VPD and change drive's personality. I have found a lot of reference manuals for big IBM libraries which have some CE Engr Use Only and OEM Use Only Menus.... but seems it as all not really applicable to the drives used in TS3100/3200