MinisForum MS-01 : heating problem

[caplam]

I think I detect a bit of condescension in your comments.
But deep down you're right thermal design is awful. Minisforum should review it and let options to add external blower or fans.
If there are so many people to buy such things that's there's a market for these types of machines.
For me it's simple, i was happy with my z620 but recently it started to throw errors on boot and for my usage it's quite power hungry.
So i looked for a replacement. I wanted ipmi, intel igpu, sas port for das, 10Gb and more modern cpu with power savings options.
but guess what, i'm in europe and asrock rack or supermicro is super hard to find and the prices are very high.
When i had Z620 (good deal from a small broker) i quickly ran out of disk slots, it took me a year to find a decent deal on a sas external enclosure.
I would never have bought a ms-01 if i had room for a 1200mm deep rack. I need small desktop gear.
I'm just an enthusiast and even if i'm annoyed in case of failure my machines don't run the security of the pentagon.
So i wonder what's your needs and how did you try to fulfill it?
I was only half joking when speaking of dielectric fluid, many companies run tests about immersed servers.
I would suggest to minisforum to sell a kit for running their mini machines in a fluid. They wouldn't have to drill holes

 

[heromode]

I think I detect a bit of condescension in your comments.

You're right, but only because all my comments about this ever since the MS-01 was first announced and discussed here, was met with zero comments. Now, as people are getting their MS-01's, the crying fest has begun, and i find it pretty sad.. I know most people here are 1000x smarter than me. But then again, crowd enthusiasm is a real thing (see beanie babies, dutch tulips)

I need small desktop gear.

Exactly. Almost everyone here are done with big boxes. TMM format is the future for homelabs, and i love it. But so far the issue has always been thermals.

Perforated TMM cases with externally mounted standard cheap case fans is the final solution. Once everyone realizes that, smart ppl will come up with great solutions, like hot-swappable external fans. Easily mounted, and still looking good, with cool grilles and shit. The systems will look great, thermals and cooling will be a non-issue, and we will be able to cram the highest performance latest gen components in there without even thinking about sufficient airflow., and get back to business.

But the key is perforated cases with externally mounted fans. And i don't understand why people are not realizing this. Hence my frustration.

 

[heromode]

Somewhere there is the original MS-01 thread, where the Minisforum rep is saying they are monitoring the comments, and the next reply is mine, where i reply that none of this will work, unless. Ever since then until now, with the MS-01 shipping, i've just been rolling my eyes.

I hope Minisforum will offer a future case upgrade for the original MS-01 buyers, since the hardware is still perfectly fine.

But the first buyers are already talking about rigging outside fans with rubber bands and whatnot.. and not a SINGLE comment about it ever since the original MS-01 thread.. makes me sad

 

[BlueChris]

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/minisforum-ms-01-pcie-card-and-ram-compatibility-thread.42785/post-416422

I've rolled my eyes at this for months.. eventually it will be consensus, i'm just amazed how so many smart people here keep trying like fools, like small babies..

I don't get how people can be so slow regarding this.

I sit here wondering how long it will take for you people to realize the MS-01 is a completely flawed design, and will soon be trading at 80% discount because it does not have a fully perforated case, with an option to mount 120mm - 200mm case fans outside the case in a push-pull configuration, just like a tower cooler.

the MS-01 is a joke, and anyone still thinking about buying it, don't. The early adopters here, god bless them, are guinea pigs, and all manufacturers will move to external cooling with fully perforated cases based on the feedback from this ridiculous clown show.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to run all these high performance components in a small closed case with small internal fans. It works for a week, then the MS-01 will become worthless.

Well maybe some fool entrepeneur will start selling 3D printed perforated replacement cases with externally mounted case fans for awhile, to soothe the feelings of the poor MS-01 first buyers..

But for those still thinking about buying this crap, don't. In say 6 months from now, the manufacturers will start announcing next gen solutions, which will be designed exactly as i have described here for months, ever since the first, original MS-01 thread.

I'm getting really frustrated of how nobody except me seems to realize this. Don't waste your money.

source extra thin 180mm case fans, say 8mm thick, and mount them on both sides of a perforated case, it doesn't need high RPM, like in a traditional case, because all the components are so close, and airflow has nowhere else to go except straight over the components.. Say 2x 400 RPM 8x180mm fans on both side of the case, with the current components in between, and you have your mini sized hypervisor, that runs smoothly and silently for years.

It's not rocket science

plus as a major difference from traditional ATX cases, you will be able to replace / clean the external fans while system is running

Somewhere there is the original MS-01 thread, where the Minisforum rep is saying they are monitoring the comments, and the next reply is mine, where i reply that none of this will work, unless. Ever since then until now, with the MS-01 shipping, i've just been rolling my eyes.

I hope Minisforum will offer a future case upgrade for the original MS-01 buyers, since the hardware is still perfectly fine.

But the first buyers are already talking about rigging outside fans with rubber bands and whatnot.. and not a SINGLE comment about it ever since the original MS-01 thread.. makes me sad

M8 i dont know what you are on about. MS-01 is an incredible tiny machine and in my case its super great. Yes if i melt it with copies and prime95 it raises temperatures but this is logical and who does that?. In normal use its total fine.
Since yesterday all my VMs that were running on 3 machines are on it and it doesnt get a swet and i am pretty happy about that.
It could had been better? with a bit more space? yes indeed but it is what it is.

If minisforum produce a MS-02 or anything a bit bigger in size i will buy that but atm if am perfectly fine.

P.S. before this machine, i was at 200-250w per hour.. now with that i am under 70w which is one of the reasons that i bought it.

 

[wadup]

MS-01 is an incredible tiny machine and in my case its super great. Yes if i melt it with copies and prime95 it raises temperatures but this is logical and who does that?. In normal use its total fine.

P.S. before this machine, i was at 200-250w per hour.. now with that i am under 70w which is one of the reasons that i bought it.

I completely agree you have to appreciate it for what it is and not try to make it something its not. You have to be very considerate of MS-01 and the components you put in it. As caplam has shown a device without a fan on the pci side of the case will create heat-soak. This is the first mini pc with components found it much bigger machines, that use a lot more power.

This is a mini pc not a desktop and I for one applaud Minisforum for doing something different and shaking things up for the better. It' has its quirks but the pros far out weigh the cons.

 

[wadup]

The hba is largely responsible for temp raise.
To limit this and given the design of the case i think i will put an usb extraction fan on top of the case. It will lower temp in the pcie card area. This would probably benefit to the whole system.

Glad you got to the bottom of it nice work.

Your not alone with people struggling to keep the 9300-8e cool there are thousands of posts lol

I thought this one was engineered well:

Blower fan bracket for LSI 9300-8e 2024-01-28

This resource was originally created by user: kingtool on the TrueNAS Community Forums Archive. Please DM this account or comment in this thread to claim it. A freely available 3D printed bracket and duct for the LSI/Broadcom 9300-8e. The link has instructions for a compatible fan. It friction...

www.truenas.com

There is the 4 pin header on the pci side as well not sure if you could get to it but the above with the existing header would allow you to close the case up if the fan helps keep the card cool.

Details:

LSI SAS9300-8e blower fan bracket by fraxul | Download free STL model | Printables.com

Mounts a Delta BFB04512HHA-DV52 fan to the heatsink of an LSI SAS9300-8e card. | Download free 3D printable STL models

www.printables.com

Or you could try to find a better heatsink:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806083789670.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.17.3c08hjYihjYi5i&algo_pvid=64e56b47-26b8-47a9-98d7-5fc39963b1cd&algo_exp_id=64e56b47-26b8-47a9-98d7-5fc39963b1cd-8&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21USD%2178.70%2176.34%21%21%21563.75%21546.84%21%402101e5c517099302555816533e0167%2112000036545650154%21sea%21US%210%21AB&curPageLogUid=fVuskafdNcts&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch%7Cquery_from%3A

 

[skipper ohms]

Temps posted look OK without the HBA card installed.

Probably a common issue for these machines is going to be a lack of airflow in the PCIE slot area.

 

[ms264556]

M8 i dont know what you are on about. MS-01 is an incredible tiny machine and in my case its super great. Yes if i melt it with copies and prime95 it raises temperatures but this is logical and who does that?. In normal use its total fine.
Since yesterday all my VMs that were running on 3 machines are on it and it doesnt get a swet and i am pretty happy about that.
It could had been better? with a bit more space? yes indeed but it is what it is.

If minisforum produce a MS-02 or anything a bit bigger in size i will buy that but atm if am perfectly fine.

P.S. before this machine, i was at 200-250w per hour.. now with that i am under 70w which is one of the reasons that i bought it.

Yes. It's a weird rant. I'm not sure how a non-owner can get so exercised about this.

I've been using mine as my main dev box for a few weeks, successfully tried a bunch of different 30w - 45w video cards & everything has been great.

I personally like the cooling design - they have 3 quite isolated thermal zones - the CPU, PCIe & storage temps don't really impact each other, so the trick is just to make sure the PCIe card doesn't need the case to be providing airflow. The ventilation grille is directly above where the fans are on all my cards, and they've easily stayed cool even when the CPU is fully loaded.

I've ordered some liquid metal for the CPU, because I figure why not spend $15 to save 20°, but I don't have any problems with the current setup overheating.

 

[BlueChris]

Yes. It's a weird rant. I'm not sure how a non-owner can get so exercised about this.

I've been using mine as my main dev box for a few weeks, successfully tried a bunch of different 30w - 45w video cards & everything has been great.

I personally like the cooling design - they have 3 quite isolated thermal zones - the CPU, PCIe & storage temps don't really impact each other, so the trick is just to make sure the PCIe card doesn't need the case to be providing airflow. The ventilation grille is directly above where the fans are on all my cards, and they've easily stayed cool even when the CPU is fully loaded.

I've ordered some liquid metal for the CPU, because I figure why not spend $15 to save 20°, but I don't have any problems with the current setup overheating.

In the morning i did put Thermal Grizzly Metal Conductonaut Extreme in the CPU and the difference is night & day even though i also didnt had problems with CPU temps.

As for the 9300-8e or any card that is super hot, i normally where i put them, if the machine is not server to have super airflow, i put on the heatsink a Noctua 40mm 12v if i have power plugs inside and in this case in the MS-01 the 40mm 5v where i get power from an external USB3 slot.
Just any fan that you will put, must not surpass 0.5A to be certain that you will not do any harm to the USB .

 

[caplam]

I spent a lot of time digging around to find a heatsink for the hba. I haven't seen anything which suited me.
I've seen people attaching a fan to the heatsink. But for interesting results it seems you need a 40x40x20 fan. There is not enough clearance for such a fan.
I decided the best way to go was the simplest.
I ordered 2 fans with rubber feet.
I installed the ms01 on a 120mm which has rubber feet above and underneath.
Above the ms01 i put a 80mm fan with rubber feet.
And guess what, it works pretty good.
In the same conditions, without the hba my ssds drops from 42/47°C to 31/35°C.
With these results i decided to put back the hba.
So with hba temps of the ssds are now 35/40°C
Before, without fan, temps were:
above the hba heatsink : 51°C
inside the case near the pci bracket: 40°C

With a fan they are now at 30°C/ 34°C
Both the 120mm (underneath the ms01) and the 80mm (above the ms01) are pulling air inside the case.
I'm now waiting a 2280 ssd to be able to transfer my unraid from the z620 to the ms01.
You probably already knew that (not me as i never had hba temp problem ) but the lsi needs airflow.
Without fan the difference between temps on the heatsink and on the bracket was 11°C. With fan it's 4°C. I think these 2 numbers summarize pretty well the importance of airflow.
The solution is so simple (certainly not the best) and could have been more efficient if minisforum had made better vents on the case.
Next step is with an additionnal ssd and unraid running my actual conf (3vms, 45 containers). Perhaps i will change thermal paste on the cpu.

 

[skipper ohms]

I would suggest replacing the fan grills with filters on the intake side of the fans:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FYY6641

These will stop pet hair and larger particles while not reducing airflow so much that you have to run super high fan speeds.

 

[ms264556]

I had my conductonaut order arrive today, but I also had a 5 pack of generic liquid metal kits arrive from AliExpress (at the same price as a single conductonaut kit).

I'm going to try a generic kit later in the week, since the reviews claim the performance is the same (and why not, I guess: gallium is gallium).

 

[Phenic]

I had my conductonaut order arrive today, but I also had a 5 pack of generic liquid metal kits arrive from AliExpress (at the same price as a single conductonaut kit).

I'm going to try a generic kit later in the week, since the reviews claim the performance is the same (and why not, I guess: gallium is gallium).

I'll be using PTM7950 in mine when it arrives although I have some liquid metal lying around. Has anyone tried that yet?

 

[caplam]

Wadup tried. and he is happy with the result.
As my ms-01 had been properly setup. It was time to test it under load.
I throw a couple hundred files to transcode to hevc. For that i'm using tdarr and qsv. The result is quite disappointing.
It does the job but quite slowly. I have an overall encoding speed around 200-250 fps depending of the files being transcoded (the same speed as in my old server with nvidia P400)
Adding netdata container and monitoring cpu temp you can see it constantly throttling.
I'm now considering repasting.
For encoding i'm using boosh plugin which has a downside : it's writing a lot to cache. The tdarr cache is located an a single ssd pool (hynix p31 gold 2TB plugged in pcie4x4 port with heatsink). The great news is under heavy load ssd temp didn't go above 57°C.

I've seen on aliexpress a thermal paste which seller claim to have a thermal conductivity of 100W/mK and without the downsides of liquid metal (difficult to apply, conduct electricity). I don't know if it's reliable.
Do you have experience with this paste ?

 

[mrpasc]

Read this post at Igors‘ lab and make your own conclusions….

 

[BlueChris]

Wadup tried. and he is happy with the result.
As my ms-01 had been properly setup. It was time to test it under load.
I throw a couple hundred files to transcode to hevc. For that i'm using tdarr and qsv. The result is quite disappointing.
It does the job but quite slowly. I have an overall encoding speed around 200-250 fps depending of the files being transcoded (the same speed as in my old server with nvidia P400)
Adding netdata container and monitoring cpu temp you can see it constantly throttling.
I'm now considering repasting.
For encoding i'm using boosh plugin which has a downside : it's writing a lot to cache. The tdarr cache is located an a single ssd pool (hynix p31 gold 2TB plugged in pcie4x4 port with heatsink). The great news is under heavy load ssd temp didn't go above 57°C.

I've seen on aliexpress a thermal paste which seller claim to have a thermal conductivity of 100W/mK and without the downsides of liquid metal (difficult to apply, conduct electricity). I don't know if it's reliable.
Do you have experience with this paste ?

You say it throttles.. from temperature? can you try with Liquid Metal like Thermal Grizzly Cryonaut Extreme to see if you gain somehting? i did myne with that LM but i have no way to see the temps because i use esxi but i havent once heared the fan to raise up high even if i run prime95 to a vm with all cores to it.

 

[wadup]

Wadup tried. and he is happy with the result.
As my ms-01 had been properly setup. It was time to test it under load.
I throw a couple hundred files to transcode to hevc. For that i'm using tdarr and qsv. The result is quite disappointing.
It does the job but quite slowly. I have an overall encoding speed around 200-250 fps depending of the files being transcoded (the same speed as in my old server with nvidia P400)
Adding netdata container and monitoring cpu temp you can see it constantly throttling.
I'm now considering repasting.
For encoding i'm using boosh plugin which has a downside : it's writing a lot to cache. The tdarr cache is located an a single ssd pool (hynix p31 gold 2TB plugged in pcie4x4 port with heatsink). The great news is under heavy load ssd temp didn't go above 57°C.

I've seen on aliexpress a thermal paste which seller claim to have a thermal conductivity of 100W/mK and without the downsides of liquid metal (difficult to apply, conduct electricity). I don't know if it's reliable.
Do you have experience with this paste ?

When I insert a GPU MS-01 adjusts power limits, not sure what it does with other pci cards. If you really want to unlock the MS-01 and not have any throttling see my post here:

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/minisforum-ms-01-pcie-card-and-ram-compatibility-thread.42785/post-415333

Using Grizzly Kryonaut Extreme dropped my temps 20C. Stressing my machine to the max I hit 65C after LM.

To other members here if your using a GPU I don't know if I would turn power limits off without a 240w power adapter just to be safe.

caplam the stock paste in MS-01 is really really bad people replacing it with better paste is seeing 10C which is crazy usually its like 5C. If you are going to use your box for transcoding I would go LM.

Get you some Flitz polish apply cpu/heatsink and clean it off. Apply a little LM to a piece of paper and stick the applicator in it and apply to cpu. Any excess from cpu die put on raised heatsink. If you get any LM anywhere qtip with some alcohol and it comes right off. When you use qtip to clean LM off toss qtip you don't want to clean anything with it after.

It is really easy just take your time and massage LM till it starts sticking (Flitz makes it a lot better to apply). Nothing can beat LM conductivity.

Also the stock fan curves are low in my opinion I dropped 4C by making them a little more aggressive without added noise.

 

[caplam]

reading post of igor's lab (link above) i'm not convinced by liquid metal. But if thermal paste has not been correctly spread in first place, repasting could make a difference.
For now my problems are solved. There was another issue which was intel turbo boost in bios which was enabled.
I'm not particularly familiar with bios settings. I thought it was the possibility for the cpu to run at higher frequencies when load is high.
I was wrong with that setting enabled my cpu was running at 4,6GHz constantly. I disabled it and now it's running at 2,37GHz. The load is around 30% and cpu temp 65°C. Fan is running low. Before it was constantlly running full speed.

 

[BlueChris]

reading post of igor's lab (link above) i'm not convinced by liquid metal. But if thermal paste has not been correctly spread in first place, repasting could make a difference.
For now my problems are solved. There was another issue which was intel turbo boost in bios which was enabled.
I'm not particularly familiar with bios settings. I thought it was the possibility for the cpu to run at higher frequencies when load is high.
I was wrong with that setting enabled my cpu was running at 4,6GHz constantly. I disabled it and now it's running at 2,37GHz. The load is around 30% and cpu temp 65°C. Fan is running low. Before it was constantlly running full speed.

Oh i was convinced and did it
At idle with 20c ambient in bios the CPU was at 45c... now sits at 28c then in full load it was throttling but now goes at 60-65c and stays there.
I did test also with Noctua NT-H2 paste and it was better from the original but +10-15c from the LM.
I honestly almost never hear the cpu fan spins up anymore. Im thinking to raise also the CPU settings a bit higher and offcourse i love the turbo boost
I used Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut Extreme

I have the 12900H and the limits of this according to Intel are PL1:45 and PL2:115 but the bios has other settings.. anyone tried those settings?

 

[heromode]

Yes. It's a weird rant. I'm not sure how a non-owner can get so exercised about this.

I've been using mine as my main dev box for a few weeks, successfully tried a bunch of different 30w - 45w video cards & everything has been great.

I personally like the cooling design - they have 3 quite isolated thermal zones - the CPU, PCIe & storage temps don't really impact each other, so the trick is just to make sure the PCIe card doesn't need the case to be providing airflow. The ventilation grille is directly above where the fans are on all my cards, and they've easily stayed cool even when the CPU is fully loaded.

I've ordered some liquid metal for the CPU, because I figure why not spend $15 to save 20°, but I don't have any problems with the current setup overheating.

I'm sorry for coming out so negative, the MS-01 is great, and we need these types of machines, i just think the cooling needs redesigned. Never meant to 'rain on the parade' lol

One issue with cooling is also dust accumulation, leaving the MS-01 with any kind of load will mean you have to clean it of dust regularly.. That's an issue for a 24/7 server..

I do predict these will evolve eventually, and redesigned cases with bigger external fans and internal air ducts will become available.