Lenovo Thinkcentre/ThinkStation Tiny (Project TinyMiniMicro) Reference Thread

[wiggy]

Hi
I have a m90q gen3 12500 and the same Mellanox Connectx-4 LX (Dell 0MRT0D) inserted in x16 raiser.

Hi @MadOptiX,

I hope it's OK to ask about an old post.

Did you solve this?

I have an m90q gen 5, x16 riser 5C50W00933, and an Intel X710-DA2 with latest firmware.

ASPM is enabled automatically but the m90q 'package' won't drop below C2. Almost 20 watts at idle are added.

I was curious so got a TrendNet TEG-10GECSFP. This isn't recognised in the x16 riser, so I also got x4 riser 5C50W00909. The TEG then works but ASPM doesn't, and power consumption is basically the same as with the X710.

Forcing ASPM for the TEG works but then 'correctable' pcie errors occur roughly every 30 seconds so I'm not sure I should trust it.

Some people have 10-gig NICs with idle power consumption in single figures. Basically I'm jealous

 

[WifiCable]

I've decided to make my riser design for Tiny6 and Tiny7 public. It's been finished for a few months and I'd been waiting to put it up until I was able to start selling it myself, but I don't see that happening particularly soon and I don't want to keep sitting on this while it could be useful to people, so here it is:
GitHub - a-little-wifi/Tinyriser6: Tinyriser for the Tiny6 and Tiny7 generations of Lenovo Tiny PCs




It does the same thing as my previous design for Tiny5, gives you the PCIe slot with 8 lanes from the CPU and an NVMe slot with 4 lanes from the PCH, as well as a fan header.
New on this version is the USB 2.0 port and a bunch of random IO breakout, as well as an improved edge connector design.

Compatible with M90q Gen 1 & Gen 2, P340 and P350 Tiny.

Hope you all like it!
Tiny8 is next on the list.

 

[wiggy]

Hi @MadOptiX, and maybe of interest to others.

Using the x16 riser and x710-DA2 NIC, my m90q gen 5 will not go below C2. This had the effect of increasing idle power consumption by around 20 watts.

Some posts mention PCH-connected PCIe cards would avoid this. So, I Dremel-ed the end off an x4 riser.

The m90q now happily goes down to C8, and the x710 adds 5 watts. Phew.

 

[Gr3yh0und]

Some posts mention PCH-connected PCIe cards would avoid this. So, I Dremel-ed the end off an x4 riser.

Hey @wiggy, could you please elaborate on this part and maybe share a picture? So you are basically using the x16 90° Riser on the board and put a x4 riser in between (with dremeled off ends), so that the x8 card fits into the x4 riser?

I am running into the same issue as stated early with both my X710 and XXV710 card on a gen 6 (or in this case P3 Gen 2).

 

[wiggy]

Hey @wiggy, could you please elaborate on this part and maybe share a picture? So you are basically using the x16 90° Riser on the board and put a x4 riser in between (with dremeled off ends), so that the x8 card fits into the x4 riser?

I am running into the same issue as stated early with both my X710 and XXV710 card on a gen 6 (or in this case P3 Gen 2).

I'm not using the x16 riser anymore.

My X710-DA2 NIC is x8, but the riser is only x4, so the NIC won't fit.

To make the NIC fit, I cut a groove in the riser's PCIe connector, so the extra lanes of the NIC stick out the side:




It's a real hack job:




The NIC then uses just the four lanes:

# lspci -vv -s 01:00.0 | grep -i LnkSta
LnkSta: Speed 16GT/s, Width x4 LnkSta2: Current De-emphasis Level: -6dB, EqualizationComplete+ EqualizationPhase1+

 

[Gr3yh0und]

Ah so you are using the x4 riser instead. I actually ordered my Gen 6 with the NV card to initially already get the right riser... Seems I was wrong after all. I've ordered the x4 and waiting for WifiCable to maybe create a better one in the future

So I guess the layout is then then first 4x PCIE lanes are coming from PCH while the other 4x are provided by the CPU? And the latter then is the issue.

It is also odd that Lenovo also lists a x8 riser as well... Which is called x8 but basically is the old x16 one from the previous gen.

 

[WifiCable]

Ah so you are using the x4 riser instead. I actually ordered my Gen 6 with the NV card to initially already get the right riser... Seems I was wrong after all. I've ordered the x4 and waiting for WifiCable to maybe create a better one in the future

So I guess the layout is then then first 4x PCIE lanes are coming from PCH while the other 4x are provided by the CPU? And the latter then is the issue.

It is also odd that Lenovo also lists a x8 riser as well... Which is called x8 but basically is the old x16 one from the previous gen.

I would most likely be using the 8 CPU lanes for the main slot on my Tiny8 riser whenever that comes around, so it wouldn't help in your situation.
And yeah it's strange that Lenovo made a new 'x8' riser model, as far as I could tell it's identical to the 'x16' one they already had for gen 3, 4 and 5.

 

[Gr3yh0und]

I would most likely be using the 8 CPU lanes for the main slot on my Tiny8 riser whenever that comes around, so it wouldn't help in your situation.
And yeah it's strange that Lenovo made a new 'x8' riser model, as far as I could tell it's identical to the 'x16' one they already had for gen 3, 4 and 5.

I was specifically ordering the P3G2 with the T400 card to get the "new" x16 riser, as I thought it might take some time to get this available via the parts site of Lenovo. So for the others, according to the documentation there is the new x16 (5C50W32107 - which is called "PCIe x8 Riser Card" on the parts site) and the old x4 (5C50W00909 - "BLD Tiny8 PCIex4 Riser card"), however the lenovo parts site also the old x16 ( 5C50W00933 - "BLD Tiny8 PCIex16 N Riser card") as compatible.

@WifiCable do you want some pictures of the 5C50W32107 which are not from Lenovo for your github repo? Then I can make some when I will switch to the x4 riser for now.

 

[senso]

I also have a x8 riser that came with an A310 and a X4 riser.

The X8 riser didn't work with a genuine I350-T4 card, it powers the card, but nothing is detected on the PCIe. Only tried a single card and it was on windows 11..

Seems like it only enables the whole x8 PCIe, since the X4 card is missing the second presence pin it never turns on the interface.

The X4 riser indeed provides the lanes from the chipset and not the CPU lanes.

 

[WifiCable]

I also have a x8 riser that came with an A310 and a X4 riser.

The X8 riser didn't work with a genuine I350-T4 card, it powers the card, but nothing is detected on the PCIe. Only tried a single card and it was on windows 11..

Seems like it only enables the whole x8 PCIe, since the X4 card is missing the second presence pin it never turns on the interface.

The X4 riser indeed provides the lanes from the chipset and not the CPU lanes.

I wonder why all those detection issues are happening on the Tiny8 x8/x16 riser. Visually it looks like the presence detection pins are connected properly, and it wouldn't make much sense for the NIC to not work with the CPU lanes for some reason.
You've got part number 5C50W00933 right? With BA7K78 Rev 1.2 written on the PCB? From the pictures I have that one looks wired properly. I don't have the official Tiny8 riser slot pinout though, so maybe there's some more weird stuff going on.

If someone's willing to poke their 5C50W00933 riser with a multimeter, could you check if there's continuity between pin B31 and B81 on the PCIe slot? If they're connected (which they should be) then x4 cards should work fine in theory.

@Gr3yh0und Sure, more detailed pictures of the 5C50W32107 riser would be nice. Does it look different than the pictures from Lenovo? Also, this forum might not be the best place for sharing high-resolution images, would it be possible for you to make a pull request on the repo?

 

[DouglasteR]

Back with some dumb questions:

I have a m920q with a 9990t that DONT recognize any pcie cards, while using the standart 65w brick.

BUT with the i7-8700t it recognizes the pcie cards normally.

Does anyone know if the 90w or 120w brick would help in this case ?

Thanks !

 

[sw1]

@WifiCable would an M.2 to PCI-E riser (something like this, from AliExpress) work in the NVMe slot of the TinyRiser v2? Trying to connect both a network card and an HBA card to the same device (will need a custom 3D case but I still like the idea as I don't have enough space for an SFF).

 

[WifiCable]

@WifiCable would an M.2 to PCI-E riser (something like this, from AliExpress) work in the NVMe slot of the TinyRiser v2? Trying to connect both a network card and an HBA card to the same device (will need a custom 3D case but I still like the idea as I don't have enough space for an SFF).

That should work in theory yeah, in the end it's all PCIe anyway. You'll have to figure out a way to power it properly though. You might be able to get away with taking 12V from Tinyriser's fan header if the card is low power enough, but that header is not designed high power draw.

HBA+NIC seems to be a decently desirable combination for these tinies, I've been considering making a dual full-size PCIe slot version of the riser for that purpose.

 

[sw1]

That should work in theory yeah, in the end it's all PCIe anyway. You'll have to figure out a way to power it properly though. You might be able to get away with taking 12V from Tinyriser's fan header if the card is low power enough, but that header is not designed high power draw.

HBA+NIC seems to be a decently desirable combination for these tinies, I've been considering making a dual full-size PCIe slot version of the riser for that purpose.

That’d be amazing, HBA + NIC is definitely a very powerful combination but with these devices it’s usually either one or the other, and your proposed riser would solve that.

 

[senso]

That should work in theory yeah, in the end it's all PCIe anyway. You'll have to figure out a way to power it properly though. You might be able to get away with taking 12V from Tinyriser's fan header if the card is low power enough, but that header is not designed high power draw.

HBA+NIC seems to be a decently desirable combination for these tinies, I've been considering making a dual full-size PCIe slot version of the riser for that purpose.

That would be very interesting!

I'm currently running an HBA card and I'm studying ways to add a GPU, probably an Arc A310 since its low power and transcodes everything.
I supposed since both cards use around 20W that it would be fine without external power.

If you want a beta tester or some other help DM me, I'm very interested in helping you if you have the time to design such adapter, I can also chip in to get a couple PCBs made.

@WifiCable would an M.2 to PCI-E riser (something like this, from AliExpress) work in the NVMe slot of the TinyRiser v2? Trying to connect both a network card and an HBA card to the same device (will need a custom 3D case but I still like the idea as I don't have enough space for an SFF).

I'm also thinking about using such adapter, but I have my doubts about the power supply, mainly the 3.3V rail. The other option is using a 50-60€ adapter from ADT that uses an ATX connector.

@WifiCable And here are some photos of the x4 riser, as good as my cheap phone can get them.

My Gallery — Postimages

postimg.cc

 

[Zune]

I've decided to make my riser design for Tiny6 and Tiny7 public. It's been finished for a few months and I'd been waiting to put it up until I was able to start selling it myself, but I don't see that happening particularly soon and I don't want to keep sitting on this while it could be useful to people, so here it is:
GitHub - a-little-wifi/Tinyriser6: Tinyriser for the Tiny6 and Tiny7 generations of Lenovo Tiny PCs

View attachment 46152
View attachment 46153

It does the same thing as my previous design for Tiny5, gives you the PCIe slot with 8 lanes from the CPU and an NVMe slot with 4 lanes from the PCH, as well as a fan header.
New on this version is the USB 2.0 port and a bunch of random IO breakout, as well as an improved edge connector design.

Compatible with M90q Gen 1 & Gen 2, P340 and P350 Tiny.

Hope you all like it!
Tiny8 is next on the list.

Thank you, @WifiCable! I was waiting for this for a "long time"! Hahaha
One question: Is the PCIe bifurcation required to use the third M.2 slot directly from that rise?

 

[WifiCable]

Thank you, @WifiCable! I was waiting for this for a "long time"! Hahaha
One question: Is the PCIe bifurcation required to use the third M.2 slot directly from that rise?

Sorry for the wait lol, are you gonna try putting it together yourself? You better order it in purple, or you will be cursed
Also what do you mean by third M.2 slot? To use the riser as designed, with the PCIe slot at 8 CPU lanes and the M.2 slot at 4 PCH lanes no bifurcation is required, just plug it in and it'll work.
In theory on Tiny6 you could also mod the motherboard to bifurcate the CPU's 8 lanes into 2 x4 links and then you'd be able to use a PCIe x8 to 2x NVMe bifurcation card in the PCIe slot to get 3 total NVMe drives out of the riser.

A welcome change on Tiny6 compared to Tiny5 is that the CPU lanes are wired in a way that doesn't require lane reversal anymore for the x4x4 bifurcation, so you don't need a specific riser for that anymore.
Meanwhile on Tiny7 the bottom NVMe slots are wired to the CPU so it's already using x8x4x4 mode with the x8 going to the riser slot, so on that generation you can't bifurcate the riser slot at all unless you're willing to sacrifice the bottom 2 NVMe slots for some reason (and it'd be lane reversed again)

 

[WifiCable]

That would be very interesting!

I'm currently running an HBA card and I'm studying ways to add a GPU, probably an Arc A310 since its low power and transcodes everything.
I supposed since both cards use around 20W that it would be fine without external power.

If you want a beta tester or some other help DM me, I'm very interested in helping you if you have the time to design such adapter, I can also chip in to get a couple PCBs made.



I'm also thinking about using such adapter, but I have my doubts about the power supply, mainly the 3.3V rail. The other option is using a 50-60€ adapter from ADT that uses an ATX connector.

@WifiCable And here are some photos of the x4 riser, as good as my cheap phone can get them.

My Gallery — Postimages

postimg.cc

That combo of cards should do fine without external power in a 2-slot riser yeah. I don't think there's much you could do to help, I just need to find the time to do it.
I will note, there is already a riser exactly like this made by someone in China, listed on Xianyu: 闲鱼 - 闲不住？上闲鱼！, however as far as I can tell there's no source files available for that one, so it's not possible to have it fabbed yourself (+ it could use some improvements). You'd have to import it using Superbuy or something.


For the M.2 to PCIe adapter, I presume the 3.3V rail is just taken directly from the M.2 slot. Luckily the 3.3V ratings for M.2 and PCIe are pretty much the same so I don't think that should cause issues, it would put the same load on the 3.3V rail as an SSD installed in that slot would (assuming the card is operating within spec)

Also thanks for the Tiny8 x4 riser photos. I do actually happen to have that exact riser here, got it to reverse engineer how the 20V to 12V buck regulator is wired up to the slot and put some detailed photos here: TinySecrets/riserpics/Official/Tiny8/tiny8 x4 macro pcb pics at main · a-little-wifi/TinySecrets. Your pics look a bit nicer than the ones I took though, so I'll add them to the repo as well, thanks!

 

[senso]

@WifiCable Thanks for your reply.
I also have the x8 riser from Lenovo, I can also take some pictures from it if you want them.

I have designed some PCBs in my life, never did anything with PCIe, but Kicad is much easier to use than it was 10 years ago. I might take a shot at it as well, if you dont mind.

I'm still reading about PCIe signals, but does this seems like something that might work?



PCB wise I just moved everything outside the PCB and set the slot at the 20.32mm spacing, at least 20.32mm is the number I was able to find in some old ATX spec, not that it matters much since we dont have an ATX case, might bump it a bit to allow for more room for the bottom card to breath.



Thinking about adding some 100uF caps to all the rails and them try to cram everything back on, I also reduced the PCB lenght by a good bit, total is now 99mm.

I was also tempted to go for at least one PCIe slot in SMD format, the bottom one is almost impossible due to how close it is to the gold fingers that connect to the tinys.

Best regards!

 

[WifiCable]

@WifiCable Thanks for your reply.
I also have the x8 riser from Lenovo, I can also take some pictures from it if you want them.

I have designed some PCBs in my life, never did anything with PCIe, but Kicad is much easier to use than it was 10 years ago. I might take a shot at it as well, if you dont mind.

I'm still reading about PCIe signals, but does this seems like something that might work?

View attachment 46226

PCB wise I just moved everything outside the PCB and set the slot at the 20.32mm spacing, at least 20.32mm is the number I was able to find in some old ATX spec, not that it matters much since we dont have an ATX case, might bump it a bit to allow for more room for the bottom card to breath.

View attachment 46227

Thinking about adding some 100uF caps to all the rails and them try to cram everything back on, I also reduced the PCB lenght by a good bit, total is now 99mm.

I was also tempted to go for at least one PCIe slot in SMD format, the bottom one is almost impossible due to how close it is to the gold fingers that connect to the tinys.

Best regards!

Ohh nice going, what you've got on the schematic so far looks good! I would advise using an appropriate symbol for the actual physical slot length you're using, and in any case if you're doing a slot shorter than x16, add a way to easily pull the CLKREQ# signal to ground, that's the critical part for card presence detection. A x16 card in a shorter slot wouldn't trigger that properly.
Also the 0R resistors on the PRSNT pins are kinda redundant at this point, you can skip them if you want. I added those back when I wasn't sure how those signals would behave but have since found it's fine to just run them directly.

KiCad's pretty friendly to use these days yeah. I'm not sure what it was like 10 years ago, version 6 is where I started, but I really quite like it too. And no I don't mind at all, this is exactly why I published the files, so other people can make variations based on it. I'm all for getting people into designing the PCBs they need, and I love showing people that PCIe isn't some unapproachable black box of signal integrity nightmares, unlike I've heard some other people say. There's just some fairly simple rules to follow and you'll be good most of the time. Please go for it! And don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions about it.

20.32mm is the spacing spec I found as well when I was doing a draft for a riser like this, though yeah some more space can't hurt. Some extra capacitors can't hurt either, and as a good friend of mine says, footprints are free, so might as well add them!

I have a work in progress project for a riser like this as well that has kinda stalled at the moment, the idea was to add a 12V to 5V buck converter too to provide an easy hookup for hard drives, for NAS use, though there are some concerns about going over the 12V rail's limit with 2 PCIe cards and a few hard drives. Do you think it would be helpful if I published the files I have for this one?

It also has jumpers to make the SMBUS connection to the PCIe slot optional since there are some raid cards that cause issues if those pins are connected.

I'm not sure what you mean the problem is with the bottom PCIe slot. Sure it is kinda close to the edge connector but still perfectly workable, I've never observed any issues with it (except that during soldering you have to be careful not to get any solder on the gold fingers, but that's easily avoided with some kapton tape). An SMD slot would be far more challenging to solder and less durable.

Close up pictures of the Tiny8 x8 riser would be very welcome too if you could take some.