Lenovo Thinkcentre/ThinkStation Tiny (Project TinyMiniMicro) Reference Thread

[dionua]

Looking for any tips here:

And so I'm just tryign to understand if I am in fact limited to just the nvidia cards listed in the PSREF, but i feel like someone has been able to get this to work. I've tried different settings in BIOS, clearing CMOS. The only thing I don't have is another machine that accepts a discrete GPU to find out if the card actually has a display signal or not.

Any help is appreciated!

These new machines at least starting from P360 Tiny are much more limited than previous ones..
Can you check not just `xrandr`, but `lspci` output? Most likely it's not present there. And I think it's nothing you can do.

Supported NVIDIA cards are very deeply integrated to BIOS. In "original and supported" configuration NVIDIA card can share fan with CPU. And BIOS knows about this, monitors GPU temperature and adjusts CPU fan when needed. But even with supported NVIDIA there are strange things. For example if I make "Intel" as primary GPU in BIOS, external NVIDIA card completely disappears from system.. Like physically unplugged.

You can try to play with BIOS settings regarding primary GPU yourself. But most likely it will not help here. The only chance you've is to try it in different riser (the one that was designed for non-GPU with less pcie lanes).

I think that my issue with "primary GPU" correlates with inability to use different non-certified GPU. And if it's really true, then latest machine where it will work is P350 Tiny (I know that on P350 Tiny external GPU is always enumerated)

But personally I consider these new P360+ Tiny machines as not customizable at all.

 

[jackfrost]

Looking for any tips here:

I've got a ThinkStation P3 Tiny Gen 1 - basically purchased all the parts separately hopefully to save some $$ and get exactly what I want.

While the PSREF lists only nvidia graphics cards, I thought maybe this wasn't so strict and got an AMD Radeon RX 6400 LP. Bought the PCIE riser for the motherboard, plugged in the GPU - fan spins

No signal coming from HDMIor DP ports - confirmed this through just plugging into my display but also they don't show up in xrandr (I'm on Linux, cachyOS)

And so I'm just tryign to understand if I am in fact limited to just the nvidia cards listed in the PSREF, but i feel like someone has been able to get this to work. I've tried different settings in BIOS, clearing CMOS. The only thing I don't have is another machine that accepts a discrete GPU to find out if the card actually has a display signal or not.

Any help is appreciated!

Usually when this happens it's a problem with the riser... what model riser do you have? Do you have a second one to test?

Could also check if the BIOS is set to use the integrated GPU only instead of auto.

 

[nimik]

I had a lot of weird issues on a P3 Ultra with a PCIe 4.0 card if I left the slot on Auto PCIe speed detection. Taking the card out, going into BIOS, forcing 4.0, then reinstalling the card made all the problems go away. Might be worth a shot.

 

[besseddrest]

Usually when this happens it's a problem with the riser... what model riser do you have? Do you have a second one to test?

Could also check if the BIOS is set to use the integrated GPU only instead of auto.

The riser is the x 16 version ending model ending w/ # 33 - b AFAIK 'official' but purchased Amazon. No second riser/card to test but i can afford a 2nd riser

BIOS i've tried both directly the discrete and Auto.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that this card should work despite the PSREF only listing NVIDIA cards?

 

[besseddrest]

These new machines at least starting from P360 Tiny are much more limited than previous ones..
Can you check not just `xrandr`, but `lspci` output? Most likely it's not present there. And I think it's nothing you can do.

Supported NVIDIA cards are very deeply integrated to BIOS. In "original and supported" configuration NVIDIA card can share fan with CPU. And BIOS knows about this, monitors GPU temperature and adjusts CPU fan when needed. But even with supported NVIDIA there are strange things. For example if I make "Intel" as primary GPU in BIOS, external NVIDIA card completely disappears from system.. Like physically unplugged.

You can try to play with BIOS settings regarding primary GPU yourself. But most likely it will not help here. The only chance you've is to try it in different riser (the one that was designed for non-GPU with less pcie lanes).

I think that my issue with "primary GPU" correlates with inability to use different non-certified GPU. And if it's really true, then latest machine where it will work is P350 Tiny (I know that on P350 Tiny external GPU is always enumerated)

But personally I consider these new P360+ Tiny machines as not customizable at all.

so the only thing with the other pcie card for this model is i'd need to cut/mod it a bit to fit the card it seems - the slot on the end of the riser is closed off (it'd be a matter of cutting plastic) I do recall seeing somewhere someone doing that but, I'm just curious what would be the technical explanation there if it worked - AFAIK that PCIE with fewer lanes won't provide as much power? I could be totally wrong as i'm pretty green here.

 

[besseddrest]

These new machines at least starting from P360 Tiny are much more limited than previous ones..
Can you check not just `xrandr`, but `lspci` output? Most likely it's not present there. And I think it's nothing you can do.

Supported NVIDIA cards are very deeply integrated to BIOS. In "original and supported" configuration NVIDIA card can share fan with CPU. And BIOS knows about this, monitors GPU temperature and adjusts CPU fan when needed. But even with supported NVIDIA there are strange things. For example if I make "Intel" as primary GPU in BIOS, external NVIDIA card completely disappears from system.. Like physically unplugged.

You can try to play with BIOS settings regarding primary GPU yourself. But most likely it will not help here. The only chance you've is to try it in different riser (the one that was designed for non-GPU with less pcie lanes).

I think that my issue with "primary GPU" correlates with inability to use different non-certified GPU. And if it's really true, then latest machine where it will work is P350 Tiny (I know that on P350 Tiny external GPU is always enumerated)

But personally I consider these new P360+ Tiny machines as not customizable at all.

sorry to answer your question - I did try lspci (though i can only view its output if i'm using the iGPU so i can see the terminal output on my monitor) - no entry that lists AMD or anything related.

I suppose i could try a riser card of a lower model (p350, p340, p330) as i've seen video of folks using those risers for the same GPU though i'm curious if i risk damage to my motherboard if doing so (but to me a 16 lane slot is a 16 lane slot).

But yeah here is a link to the powerconfigurator doc for my model - ts_p3_tiny_power_configurator_v1.0.pdf

bottom of page 13 lists the two compatible risers, as you can see the PCIEx4 i'd have to cut open one side of the lane to fit my card in

 

[hansheiri]

Is there something like this with dual 2.5GbE interfaces ?

I have not seen any dual interfaces of this kind, sorry.

 

[hansheiri]

Does anybody have experience with Mellanox SFP+ cards? Any recommendations for the m920q models to pair a specific one? They seem to be quite cheap at aliexpress so good start to experiment. Or maybe better to stick with Intel-based ones like the X710?

 

[andrea87]

Does anybody have experience with Mellanox SFP+ cards? Any recommendations for the m920q models to pair a specific one? They seem to be quite cheap at aliexpress so good start to experiment. Or maybe better to stick with Intel-based ones like the X710?

I have two connectx 3 running in my m720q/m920q machines. Be aware that ASPM is limited, and you end up with an highter system power - nothing insane, but definitely not 10W/host. with the single sfp+ card in, and the link active with a fiber transceiver, in proxmox I'm usually idling at 16-18W.

Also, a 3D printed fan mount and baffle is almost a requirement, as with the natural airflow of the Mx20q the cards reach quite high temps.

https://forums.servethehome.com/index.php?threads/sfp-cards-with-aspm-support.36817/

 

[dionua]

so the only thing with the other pcie card for this model is i'd need to cut/mod it a bit to fit the card it seems - the slot on the end of the riser is closed off (it'd be a matter of cutting plastic) I do recall seeing somewhere someone doing that but, I'm just curious what would be the technical explanation there if it worked - AFAIK that PCIE with fewer lanes won't provide as much power? I could be totally wrong as i'm pretty green here.

The only technical explanation I've is that BIOS of these newer machines expects NVIDIA GPU in that GPU slot and tries to mange it somehow.
That other riser will connect your GPU to different physical (using PCH). So there is chance that BIOS will not manage it.

And note: I'm 100% sure that even if it'll work it will not be used as "boot GPU". So you'll not be able to access BIOS or see system boot messages on monitor attached to non-NVIDIA GPU...

 

[besseddrest]

The only technical explanation I've is that BIOS of these newer machines expects NVIDIA GPU in that GPU slot and tries to mange it somehow.
That other riser will connect your GPU to different physical (using PCH). So there is chance that BIOS will not manage it.

And note: I'm 100% sure that even if it'll work it will not be used as "boot GPU". So you'll not be able to access BIOS or see system boot messages on monitor attached to non-NVIDIA GPU...

Hey there - i appreciate you getting back. I'm reading page 1 of this forum a lot closer and I do notice another user's experience with the p360 tiny - BIOS aside it seems that the RISER might actually be compatible with the specific GPUs they listed, if i understand it correctly. But either way if BIOS is the blocker it seems there's no hope for me at all! It seems like you're certain about the BIOS to Nvidia specificity. I'd be inclined to trust you on that lol.

The other thing I thought of was, why couldn't i just use some PCIE cable adapter (assuming icould somehow squeeze it in), but yeah.... BIOS

There's also that 'hack' where you short the PCIE pins (for grounding), but....at this point i'll prob stick with the iGPUtil i can afford an nvidia card(blegh). I suppose ican go for an older model to be able to use this card!

 

[jackfrost]

The riser is the x 16 version ending model ending w/ # 33 - b AFAIK 'official' but purchased Amazon. No second riser/card to test but i can afford a 2nd riser

BIOS i've tried both directly the discrete and Auto.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that this card should work despite the PSREF only listing NVIDIA cards?

Yes.

While it would be possible to make a BIOS that ignores certain hardware (and Lenovo has done this in the past with their whitelisting of wlan cards on laptops etc), I seriously doubt they're doing that for these computers (especially since it's extra work for no real purpose, and these BIOS are usually built off code bases from previous models etc).

Secondly, the PSREF isn't a document listing ONLY what works, just what Lenovo has tested/approved etc.

Lastly, the PSREF does list an AMD card: the WX3200.

 

[besseddrest]

Yes.

While it would be possible to make a BIOS that ignores certain hardware (and Lenovo has done this in the past with their whitelisting of wlan cards on laptops etc), I seriously doubt they're doing that for these computers (especially since it's extra work for no real purpose, and these BIOS are usually built off code bases from previous models etc).

Secondly, the PSREF isn't a document listing ONLY what works, just what Lenovo has tested/approved etc.

Lastly, the PSREF does list an AMD card: the WX3200.

ok so if anything my p3 tiny could possibly work with a wx3200 - its interesting because there's another version of that psref that says the p360 tiny supports 'up to 1 Nvidia T1000' and doesn't mention any other nvidia cards like in your pdf

 

[mooms]

I found something interesting about the M720Q, that probably also applies to M920Q and newer.

I've changed the 35W CPU for a i5-9500 with a TDP of 65W.

If I keep the original 65W power brick, the CPU will never be allowed to eat more than 35W, meaning the mobo knows somehow the power rating of the PSU.
If I use a 90W PSU, the CPU will eat around 45W, and could use around 60W, but the poor cooling system will limit it quickly.

It's interesting because it means it's not mandatory to change the PSU, and you don't have to find a Coffee Lake "T" variant, as they are often overpriced compared to 65W equivalent. With this you have the both of both worlds: cheap CPU end power efficient machine that will not overheat.



I've also modified (BIOS mod + pin mod) M710Q and M910Q, the performance is exactly the same with 65W and 90W PSU, meaning they don't knows which PSU they use, and they allows the CPU to eat around 48W at maximum.
M710Q also have a much better cooling system, with copper, allowing it to perform better with 65W PSU than a M720Q with a 90W one, at least with CBR23.

 

[jackfrost]

ok so if anything my p3 tiny could possibly work with a wx3200 - its interesting because there's another version of that psref that says the p360 tiny supports 'up to 1 Nvidia T1000' and doesn't mention any other nvidia cards like in your pdf

Well, it's a discontinued system and I'd assume that the AMD variant wasn't very popular or something... I only found a single place where you could even buy one: Lenovo ThinkStation P3 Tiny Workstation | Core i7-12700 @ 4.9GHz | 12-Core | 64GB DDR5 | 512GB NVMe SSD | AMD WX 3200 4GB

You could maybe try calling them and seeing if you could find out more information about the exact Lenovo product model they're selling, etc.

A lot of the time with these mini-pcs the aftermarket usually ends up with mostly the no-dedicated gpu variant and then some smattering of the most popular gpu variant... because the no gpu variant is bought in bulk by businesses that have no need for one, and then you get the random business/individual that decides they need a gpu for whatever reason.

That said, I'd really suggest trying a different riser first, preferably from a different seller and/or even a different model because the likelihood that there's some BIOS restriction to only allow a single amd gpu model (the wx3200) is just... very unrealistic imo.

Maybe buy one from Amazon or somewhere with a very generous return policy?

 

[ZombieBiceps]

I found something interesting about the M720Q, that probably also applies to M920Q and newer.

I've changed the 35W CPU for a i5-9500 with a TDP of 65W.

If I keep the original 65W power brick, the CPU will never be allowed to eat more than 35W, meaning the mobo knows somehow the power rating of the PSU.
If I use a 90W PSU, the CPU will eat around 45W, and could use around 60W, but the poor cooling system will limit it quickly.

It's interesting because it means it's not mandatory to change the PSU, and you don't have to find a Coffee Lake "T" variant, as they are often overpriced compared to 65W equivalent. With this you have the both of both worlds: cheap CPU end power efficient machine that will not overheat.



I've also modified (BIOS mod + pin mod) M710Q and M910Q, the performance is exactly the same with 65W and 90W PSU, meaning they don't knows which PSU they use, and they allows the CPU to eat around 48W at maximum.
M710Q also have a much better cooling system, with copper, allowing it to perform better with 65W PSU than a M720Q with a 90W one, at least with CBR23.

There is no measurable difference between the cooling of the aluminium and copper cpu coolers at sustained loads as they both get saturated. The fans are different since the 65w copper cooler is designed to be used with a gpu heatsink that slots inline with the cpu heatsink via a heatpipe. Tiny 5 models (m720Q, m920Q and P330) check which power brick you are using by measuring the signal pin that uses a resistor to communicate what wattage it is rated for.

It could be that the m710Q and m910q only check if the psu is 65w or greater since neither support pcie expansion cards, meaning there's no reason to limit power to the cpu.

You still need a larger psu if you want sustained boost on T processor for the tiny 5's in my experience.

 

[besseddrest]

Well, it's a discontinued system and I'd assume that the AMD variant wasn't very popular or something... I only found a single place where you could even buy one: Lenovo ThinkStation P3 Tiny Workstation | Core i7-12700 @ 4.9GHz | 12-Core | 64GB DDR5 | 512GB NVMe SSD | AMD WX 3200 4GB

You could maybe try calling them and seeing if you could find out more information about the exact Lenovo product model they're selling, etc.

A lot of the time with these mini-pcs the aftermarket usually ends up with mostly the no-dedicated gpu variant and then some smattering of the most popular gpu variant... because the no gpu variant is bought in bulk by businesses that have no need for one, and then you get the random business/individual that decides they need a gpu for whatever reason.

That said, I'd really suggest trying a different riser first, preferably from a different seller and/or even a different model because the likelihood that there's some BIOS restriction to only allow a single amd gpu model (the wx3200) is just... very unrealistic imo.

Maybe buy one from Amazon or somewhere with a very generous return policy?

ooo, that gives me hope. I found an affordable WX3200 on ebay for $45, might as well give it a try!

Its interesting - I'm assuming if the model you linked above uses the same mobo, then i've got a chance. Currently my p3 tiny mobo is ver 1.0 so it's likely. In a previous build- I was having problems upgrading the CPU for a m75q gen 2 - it turns out that there were 2 runs of this model in which the 2nd run could supporrt a Cezanne upgrade (which allowed you to use Zen 3 compatible AMD cpus). The first run had mobo ver 1.0, 1.1. The second 1.2, 1.3

I'm gonna hang onto this riser, see if the 3200 works when it arrives, if not, try a new riser (the riser costs more than the GPU!) on both cards. Thanks for the info!

 

[AlexandreFNR]

Hello !

I'm a proud owner of a Lenovo M720q Tiny (Type 10T8) with an i7-8700, a Maxsun RTX 3050 LP, etc. I'm interested in unlocking different things if possible in the BIOS (latest one) :

- Above 4G decoding
- Resizable-bar
- Maybe WiFi cards whitelist if possible

I saw many things about this topic but as a non-native english speaker, it's not very easy for me to understand the full process. Could anyone help me in achieving BIOS modding ? I have a CH341A programmer that I used in the past for a Lenovo M710q Tiny.

Also, despite having Intel Virtualization and Virtualization in Windows 11 24H2 both disabled, I can't undervolt in ThrottleStop 9.7...

Thank you a lot !

 

[mooms]

There is no measurable difference between the cooling of the aluminium and copper cpu coolers at sustained loads as they both get saturated. The fans are different since the 65w copper cooler is designed to be used with a gpu heatsink that slots inline with the cpu heatsink via a heatpipe. Tiny 5 models (m720Q, m920Q and P330) check which power brick you are using by measuring the signal pin that uses a resistor to communicate what wattage it is rated for.

It could be that the m710Q and m910q only check if the psu is 65w or greater since neither support pcie expansion cards, meaning there's no reason to limit power to the cpu.

You still need a larger psu if you want sustained boost on T processor for the tiny 5's in my experience.

That's not my experience, in CBR23 mt benchmarks (10 min), M710Q performs better than M720Q, all of them with the same CPU (i5-9500)


Compare their heatsink:


M710Q:



M720Q:




M720Q with 90W PSU:


M710Q with 65W PSU (around 23% better than M720Q !):


M720Q
With CPU-Z bench CPU Package Power reach 60W, so the motherboard is actually capable of delivering nearly full power to the CPU, at lest if you use an adequate PSU.


M720Q
With CPU-Z stress test CPU Package Power reach 60W but lower to 35W after a minute, probably because the temps are very high.


I don't have the M710Q anymore so I can't do more tests.

 

[ZombieBiceps]

That's not my experience, in CBR23 mt benchmarks (10 min), M710Q performs better than M720Q, all of them with the same CPU (i5-9500)


Compare their heatsink:


M710Q:



M720Q:




M720Q with 90W PSU:


M710Q with 65W PSU (around 23% better than M720Q !):


M720Q
With CPU-Z bench CPU Package Power reach 60W, so the motherboard is actually capable of delivering nearly full power to the CPU, at lest if you use an adequate PSU.


M720Q
With CPU-Z stress test CPU Package Power reach 60W but lower to 35W after a minute, probably because the temps are very high.


I don't have the M710Q anymore so I can't do more tests.

Yeah fore sure I was referring to the 65w cooler for the m720q not making a difference compared to the 35w cooler. Both topped out at the same power, temps and boost duration.

Presumably the m720q bios/firmware is following the long and short turbo power limits and the m710q doesn't, which is interesting for anyone who wants maximum performance from a 9th gen chip. The tiny 4 machines being cheap as well is really nice.