Intel Core X Series Launched: 18 Cores and Maddening Differentiation

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Rain

Active Member
May 13, 2013
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I wish the eight core model had 44 PCIe lanes; it seems way too artificially gimped. Other than that, everything else kind of makes sense.

While I know Intel is still in a good position, I'm a bit surprised they showed nearly all their cards before AMD Threadripper's pricing was made available. This is going to be interesting.

It kind of saddens me that my i7-3930K, happily sitting at 4.5GHz, has more PCIe 3.0 lanes* than the new i9-7820X with it's higher launch price... *(Sandy Bridge-E i7 CPUs support PCIe3 speeds, but were not formally PCIe3 certified like the Xeon parts were)
 

msvirtualguy

Active Member
Jan 23, 2013
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I gotta say, requiring me to spend $1k for more lanes than 28 has me MORE interested in what AMD has up it's sleeve with Threadripper.

I think that was a really dumb move on Intel's part seeing as how NVMe is becoming mainstream and people are going to want multiple NVMe/M.2-U2 etc...especially as x299 matures.
 

MiniKnight

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Mar 30, 2012
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That's stupid. Suckier next year is when you need to closely look at specs to see which one I'll buy used. I'm skipping this gen to protest.
 

Biren78

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Jan 16, 2013
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Your article implies that if I had a dual E5 V3 or V4 workstation I lose top clocks but I'm paying maybe half of what the 18C is and I can get similar net performance. I'd also get more PCIe more SATA more RAM using ECC RDIMMs.
 

i386

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Mar 18, 2016
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I think they are okayish considering these are consumer cpus. (For comparison Ryzen 7 has 24 pcie lanes and ThreadRipper 64 pcie lanes)
 

eva2000

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Apr 15, 2013
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Not sure if anyone saw this but LGA2066 processors are using thermal paste instead of being soldered to the IHS:

Intel's Skylake-X and Kaby Lake-X CPUs will not be soldered | CPU & Mainboard | OC3D News

For HEDT that's absolutely unacceptable especially at the prices Intel is charging. This is a visible break from their previous HEDT which had all used solder for the IHS. Why this is important is due to the following:

"The problems that arise from using non-soldered CPUs occur because the TIM used by Intel will not have the same thermal conductivity as a directly soldered CPU, which will cause Intel's CPUs to run hotter, especially when overclocked."

So not only when it is overclocked but likely running at stock speeds consumers will likely end up delidding the IHS just to run at acceptable thermals.
wow thanks for heads up !
 

Jeggs101

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Dec 29, 2010
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It's a timid release. 1x 4GHz 18C is better than 2x 2GHz 18C E5 for workstations. If you've got OCing to 5GHz why get E5?
 

ATS

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Mar 9, 2015
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Yeah that's complete BS. It isn't low-quality TIM. In fact, it is one of the best most stable TIMs you can get on the market. That TIM can be thermally cycled close to infinite times with basically no pump out and has essentially no time based degradation. Also anyone that thinks they switched from solder to TIM to save pennies is literally insane, they likely switched for reliability reasons.
 

Klee

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Jun 2, 2016
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If AMD had nothing coming down the pipe everyone would be super pumped up for this but seeing some of the info on what AMD has coming out with its real hard to be real excited about this.
 

KioskAdmin

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Jan 20, 2015
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If AMD didn't have something coming, we wouldn't have these chips.

But f- Intel for doing this garbage with PCIe and RAM. 4 channel memory. 44 PCIe. Done.
 
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Stephan

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How come nobody has commented yet that the new C422 chipset apparently has a high enough TDP that it requires a small (noisy) fan? E.g. on Gigabyte GA-C422-WS board. No such thing on C236 or X99, I consider this a step backward.
 

ATS

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Mar 9, 2015
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No contrary to your claim it's not "complete BS".

1. Dow Corning isn't even close to the best TIM you can get on the market (especially since it's the same TIM used for their other TIM based processors such as the 6700K, 4770K, 7700K etc...)
2. TIM should only be used on small dies (this is a large die hence your statement about thermal cycles is not applicable)
3. Xeon E3's are soldered and work fine with various thermal environment and cycling.
4. Previous HEDT were always soldered.
5. The other issue is the gap between the die and the tim/ihs.
6. Refer to processors that use TIM and see what temperatures they run at stock/overclocked versus soldered.

They didn't switch for reliability reasons they switched to save costs.
1) DC TIMs are the best you can get on the market for what matters: reliability. Their TIMs have virtually zero pump out, have free flowing fill capability, and are basically unaffected by either thermal cycling or time degradation.
2) TIM can be used on all size dies. Solder still has issues even with large dies and still suffer from thermal cycling.
3)Xeon E3 are using the same TIM as their various Core iX cousins
4) Previous gasoline was leaded
5) gap is always an issue irrespective of solder or TIM
6) Intel cares about reliability above all else in thermal solutions. Temperatures are within operational range and overclocking is buyer beware as always.

The cost differential between TIM and solder is noise. They aren't going to switch to save literally pennies per part.

If you think soldered dies are inferior and have issues with degradation then you need to refer to mainstream Sandy Bridge processors which are still working to this day. The fact that you are defending a practice of putting TIM on processors up to $2000 on a HEDT platform is why I decided to post this rebuttal. You can't claim someone is "insane" because they view Intel's practices of putting TIM as acceptable on HEDT to save pennies.
Cost is a non-issue for solder vs TIM. If they are going to TIM, it is for a viable engineering reason.


The reality is that X299 is lackluster and a rushed response to Threadripper while offering less features than Threadrippper and being priced more than Threadripper would potentially be. That's not even talking about that you need the 10 core processor just to get the full 44 lanes as the lower lineups all have 28 lanes.
X299 is not a response to Threadripper. It was always planned and is shipping basically on time that roadmaps have had it at for quite a while. Threadripper (and quite honestly the 12-18c i9s) are solutions in search of a problem. There is little point in low clock speeds and high core count outside of server workloads. We can talk more about Threadripper when it is more than some nebulous concept with zero concrete facts.

As far as PCIe lanes, meh. They pretty much go unused in 99.9% of the cases. The number of machines that are used with multiple GPUs outside of servers are minimal. SLI and XF are terrible solutions that don't provide any benefit the majority of the time. Most use cases for multiple GPUs outside of server have bandwidth to spare at 1 lane per.
 

MiniKnight

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Mar 30, 2012
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The TIM is blown out of proportion. If we can buy TIM for a few bucks a tube, Intel has economies of scale which means either solder or TIM cannot cost more than "a few pennies" if that. They're driven by cost so I can't see why they'd use TIM unless there's a big cost savings somewhere like if their TIM makes chips more reliable.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and Intel is buying AS5 on the open market and paying elves to squeeze it on.
 

PigLover

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Jan 26, 2011
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@ATS and @Nanotech - I wonder if either of you actually think you are going to convince each other - or anyone else - of anything other than your religious zealotry by this dialog? Neither of you are right or wrong, the facts don't support or refute either of you - you each draw different conclusions the same facts.
 
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ATS

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Mar 9, 2015
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I've yet to see Dow Corning any better than MX-2,MX-4 or any of the best TIM brands available on the market for consumers and it's definitely inferior to liquid thermal pastes. There's a reason why enthusiasts and consumers buy those TIM's and not Dow Corning. As for your reliability on Dow Corning you should look at the thermal paste shelf life of Dow Corning compared to something such as MX-2 or MX-4. It's a big difference and your statement is incorrect and misleading (factually). If you don't believe me then take for example TIM on the DBX-B and compare with the MX-2/MX-4. Dow Corning is at best maybe a few years (under perfect conditions) whereas MX-2/4 is 8 years+. I know because I've researched their TIM's before and seen the slides and information available.
There are only 2 large scale suppliers of TIM pastes, Dow Corning and Shin Etsu. Arctic Cooling does not make TIMs. They are not a large scale industrial manufacturer. Their cooling solutions with almost 100% certainty start out in vats at either Dow Corning or Shin Etsu, as do pretty much all TIMs on the retail market. All Arctic does is have a contract manufacturer mix in some alumina oxide into a paste from likely either DC or SE and package it into tubes. It should also be pointed out that DC and SE have a wide array of different thermal pastes with various different properties.

Gap becomes an issue when you use TIM. Read above and refer to the above link. Gap when soldered wasn't an issue.
Bond line thickness (BLT) is always an issue in any thermal application and is highly critical in indium solder TIM applications. For some background on some of the various issues with Indium solder in TIM applications, this is a good primer: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/40fe/11ccc30fcdac3d2c38cb65b42f112f040558.pdf



Intel doesn't care about reliability. This is planned obsolescence. Intel is saving money by using cheap bulk TIM from Dow Corning which is known to degrade within a few years. Reliable and well known/proven TIM brands can last many years compared to Dow Corning. HEDT platforms have always been popular with overclockers and now that it will overclock even worse than Broadwell-E where do you think enthusiasts have gone? I know many who have gone with X99 upgrades or Ryzen or elsewhere because of Intel's TIM choice on X299. You can try and justify it but Intel's userbase is looking to X399 or X99 and not X299.
Having worked at Intel in the past, the statement that Intel doesn't care about reliability is complete BS. It is a critical gate at both tapeout and PRQ. The cost differential for Intel for something like TIM vs solder is literally in the noise. Intel will likely sell more X299 CPUs than the AMD will sell 8c+ Ryzen products.
 

ATS

Member
Mar 9, 2015
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I've yet to see Dow Corning any better than MX-2,MX-4 or any of the best TIM brands available on the market for consumers and it's definitely inferior to liquid thermal pastes. There's a reason why enthusiasts and consumers buy those TIM's and not Dow Corning. As for your reliability on Dow Corning you should look at the thermal paste shelf life of Dow Corning compared to something such as MX-2 or MX-4. It's a big difference and your statement is incorrect and misleading (factually). If you don't believe me then take for example TIM on the DBX-B and compare with the MX-2/MX-4. Dow Corning is at best maybe a few years (under perfect conditions) whereas MX-2/4 is 8 years+. I know because I've researched their TIM's before and seen the slides and information available.
There are only 2 large scale suppliers of TIM pastes, Dow Corning and Shin Etsu. Arctic Cooling does not make TIMs. They are not a large scale industrial manufacturer. Their cooling solutions with almost 100% certainty start out in vats at either Dow Corning or Shin Etsu, as do pretty much all TIMs on the retail market. All Arctic does is have a contract manufacturer mix in some alumina oxide into a paste from likely either DC or SE and package it into tubes. It should also be pointed out that DC and SE have a wide array of different thermal pastes with various different properties.

Gap becomes an issue when you use TIM. Read above and refer to the above link. Gap when soldered wasn't an issue.
Bond line thickness (BLT) is always an issue in any thermal application and is highly critical in indium solder TIM applications. For some background on some of the various issues with Indium solder in TIM applications, this is a good primer: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/40fe/11ccc30fcdac3d2c38cb65b42f112f040558.pdf



Intel doesn't care about reliability. This is planned obsolescence. Intel is saving money by using cheap bulk TIM from Dow Corning which is known to degrade within a few years. Reliable and well known/proven TIM brands can last many years compared to Dow Corning. HEDT platforms have always been popular with overclockers and now that it will overclock even worse than Broadwell-E where do you think enthusiasts have gone? I know many who have gone with X99 upgrades or Ryzen or elsewhere because of Intel's TIM choice on X299. You can try and justify it but Intel's userbase is looking to X399 or X99 and not X299.
Having worked at Intel in the past, the statement that Intel doesn't care about reliability is complete BS. It is a critical gate at both tapeout and PRQ. The cost differential for Intel for something like TIM vs solder is literally in the noise. Intel will likely sell more X299 CPUs than the AMD will sell 8c+ Ryzen products.
 

Mam89

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Jan 14, 2016
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I'm curious if the 18 core varieties were always slated for release, just later than mid next year as an incremental to the x299 platform. I think Intel kind of rushed them out the door as it were because Threadrippers announcement probably came early. So, heres looking foward to a very limited initial release until they can bin down some of the new xeon series to fill the need. Dr. Su is taking a good thing and running, and Intel are working hard to keep pace lol

All good things for us, as it means we don't have to wait the extra year before these hit the used market.
 

Aluminum

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Sep 7, 2012
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Any word on ECC and Registered support? Ark for the 6-10 core models says nay on both. Kind of a big deal for the people that would go with the bigger cores, they tend to actually want to populate the memory and have it stable.