FreeNAS is becoming TrueNAS Core

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brettdavis

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How do they compare to them from a failure rate and support wise (what base hardware are they using looks like supermicro maybe?)?
We work with two major hardware ODMs for TrueNAS products. We do use SuperMicro motherboards with two of the four TrueNAS models, but the rest of the hardware is not SuperMicro.

We'd love to do a failure rate comparison, but it's hard when other vendors don't tend to make the info public. I'd expect there to not be much variance.

I can tell you all day that our Customer Sat scores are high, but so can everybody else, so I'll defer:

iXsystems, Inc. Reviews | San Jose CA | VendOp
[PRAISE] TrueNAS support is pretty great : sysadmin
iXsystems support : sysadmin
TrueNAS M40 : freenas

What about performance and feature set? (I haven't ever really looked at them for enterprise use, netapp/nimble/vnx/etc I'm familiar with)
VNXe (now Unity), Netapp, and Nimble are whom we compete with most often (and in that order). We compare very favorably when it comes to performance, especially when cost is added to the equation. We also compare well on all major features, though all three have some integrations and minor features that we don't. That said, TrueNAS licensing is all-inclusive instead of their 'pay-per-feature' model, so there are at least no hidden costs post-purchase.

DCIG did a full feature comparison of all the vendors you named along with TrueNAS (though, you will need to give an email to get the report): https://dcig.com/2020/01/dcig-2020-...-hybrid-array-buyers-guide-now-available.html

Hope that answers your questions. Happy to clarify anything else!
 

brettdavis

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I hear you. Let me be devil's advocate/conspiracy theorist: With what is happening in the ZFS space, there is probably gonna be the need to distant ZFS from OSs. Maintaining the "Free" in FreeNAS invokes a reference to FreeBSD, which is probably not in keeping with the ethos.

iXsystems is a gold sponsor of the ZFS developer forum and is quite committed to ZFS 2.0 and the project, therefore quite invested.

Seems logical that iXsystems would choose to now ditch the "Free". :D
Ha, I love a good conspiracy theory! Luckily, the FreeBSD and ZFS licenses are totally compatible, so we don't have issues like Linux OS's do.

Ditching "Free" for us is mostly about gaining efficiencies, but it's also about 'ditching' the stigma around the word "Free" that tends to diminish the value of both the open source and enterprise products.
 
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woodshop2300

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I understand that sentiment. The issue is that the systems are highly configurable. That said, we do give rough pricing guidance in the "Specs & Pricing" tab here: https://www.ixsystems.com/truenas/

Would love your opinion on a better way to do it.
I for one like what you did back in August of 2019, you identified a market segment that that you could appeal too if only the audience wasn’t put off by the whole get a quote rig a ma row.
You bypassed all of that put together a configuration that fits a purpose and slapped a name and price on it. I’m speaking of the Centurion, if it’s what you want great done, but if it’s close it at least gives the viewer a window into what things might cost thereabouts for what they do want.
 

brettdavis

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I for one like what you did back in August of 2019, you identified a market segment that that you could appeal too if only the audience wasn’t put off by the whole get a quote rig a ma row.
You bypassed all of that put together a configuration that fits a purpose and slapped a name and price on it. I’m speaking of the Centurion, if it’s what you want great done, but if it’s close it at least gives the viewer a window into what things might cost thereabouts for what they do want.
Thanks for the feedback! Glad that helped you. We are more or less making that a quarterly thing now where we pick a couple of configurations, build up inventory, and then give them special pricing for the quarter. We announce them on the monthly FreeNAS/TrueNAS/iX newsletter list. They don't always have cool names like the Centurion (which was a 100TB All Flash Array), but they at least give some examples of pricing.

You can sign up for that newsletter here, if interested:
Download FreeNAS - FreeNAS - Open Source Storage Operating System
 

Jeggs101

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I don't like it either, but OK. That post @Patrick summed up how I'm feeling while reading it. You're not the most feeliest writer but that one did it
 

bubsterboo

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Dec 15, 2019
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I just ordered a Mini XL+ a few weeks ago. Largely based on the reviews here and the community here.
Should I be concered my ixsystems NAS may one day be lacking desirable features behind a license paywall?

Features like High Availability fine. But I'm concrend that may only be the beginning.
 

T_Minus

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This unification will make that more possible, but we don't segment many of the features between the two today, other than the stuff that requires specific hardware to work. Which features would you like to access via license, hypothetically?
Hypothetically speaking, one-off support tickets with 2 options one for normal business hours reply and one for emergency 24\hr support, and HA come to mind currently.

Our goal is to democratize enterprise storage. Therefore, we want people and organizations who are capable of self-supporting to have access to enterprise features in the free, open source product. When they need support, services, around the clock availability, and purpose-built, dependable hardware, then they can come talk to us :)



TrueNAS has thousands of customers. Here's a snapshot of a handful:
Our Clients - iXsystems, Inc. - Enterprise Storage & Servers
 
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brettdavis

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It would be nice if they had 3 tier licensing.
1. Commercial - full product features
2. Home/small business- maybe 80% of features
3. Free - freenas level features- maybe 10-20% of features.
Sorry, I missed this comment initially.

Hopefully you'll like our two tiered model even better ;-)

1. Free: ~90% of features
2. Commercial: full product features & support
 
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brettdavis

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I just ordered a Mini XL+ a few weeks ago. Largely based on the reviews here and the community here.
Should I be concered my ixsystems NAS may one day be lacking desirable features behind a license paywall?

Features like High Availability fine. But I'm concrend that may only be the beginning.
Thanks for your support! Hoping you love your Mini XL+.

You'll be happy to know that version 12.0 (when the name changes from FreeNAS to TrueNAS CORE) will actually have *more* features than what you have today. We currently only segment a handful of enterprise-specific features onto TrueNAS Enterprise or things that require special hardware (like HA), and that model isn't changing.
 
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brettdavis

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Hypothetically speaking, one-off support tickets with 2 options one for normal business hours reply and one for emergency 24\hr support, and HA come to mind currently.
As it's architected today, HA wouldn't be useful if licensed apart from the TrueNAS hardware, unfortunately. In order for it to reliable and for us to guarantee uptime, the code requires intimate knowledge of the specific NTB bus, midplane, SAS expander, etc.

As for support, we do offer it if you're using our server hardware for FreeNAS, and we'll also do professional service engagements for customer deployments of a certain size that are using FreeNAS on non-iXsystems hardware.

The reason why we don't offer support in general for other hardware is that it's very hard for us (or anyone) to provide a positive customer experience. I'll explain:

In order for any storage system (*especially* ZFS) to function well, there are at least a dozen pieces of hardware (and their associated firmware) that all need to play nicely with one another, all the way down to the model number and firmware of the hard drive being used, for example. When using other hardware (either from an OEM like Dell or HP, or a system built by the customer), we find that the majority of customer issues are caused by hardware or firmware incompatibility and/or configuration issues. However, if we aren't familiar with that specific model of, say, Lenovo server, we then need to spend a lot of time combing through hardware model numbers and respective firmware before we can even begin isolating what the issue might be. This leads to protracted, iterative troubleshooting, prolonged support calls, and sometimes it results in unsolvable issues or the need to involve a separate hardware vendor's support team who likely has no clue about our software.

We know this because early on in the FreeNAS days we tried this model. Customers weren't very happy, and it was incredibly difficult for us to charge fees that would cover our costs that customers would still be willing to pay.

And, this is certainly not unique to FreeNAS/TrueNAS. Frankly, it's a common issue with all software-defined scale-up storage, as evidenced by the way other companies have addressed this issue over time:

Early on in the software-defined storage (SDS) days, they all said, "Install this software on *any* x86 hardware and you can have a 'NetApp on commodity hardware.'"

Fast forward a couple years, and the ones that were still in business said, "Install this software on something from this specific list of components on our Hardware Compatibility List (HCL) and you can have a 'NetApp on commodity hardware.'"

Fast forward a couple years, and the even smaller group that were still in business said, "Buy one of these specific Dell/HPE/SuperMicro models, and they'll either come preinstalled with the software, or contact us, we'll do a hardware check, and if it's approved, we'll give you the software for you to install."

So, at that point you're essentially buying and building a "disaggregated appliance" from two separate vendors, which increases complexity, costs the same or more, and ultimately costs you more operationally to support.

This is more or less where we are today in the world of scale-up SDS, which is why many of our competitors are no longer around. When it comes to making storage reliable for around the clock operation, it turns out that intimate knowledge of the hardware really really matters. Scale-out SDS makes this a bit easier, but it comes with a host of other issues and extra costs.

Sorry for the long-winded answer, but as much as we'd love to offer support for "FreeNAS/TrueNAS CORE installed on anything", you probably wouldn't be super happy with the experience, and you likely wouldn't save any money (and certainly not time) over simply having purchased a system through us.
 
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T_Minus

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Feb 15, 2015
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As it's architected today, HA wouldn't be useful if licensed apart from the TrueNAS hardware, unfortunately. In order for it to reliable and for us to guarantee uptime, the code requires intimate knowledge of the specific NTB bus, midplane, SAS expander, etc.

As for support, we do offer it if you're using our server hardware for FreeNAS, and we'll also do professional service engagements for customer deployments of a certain size that are using FreeNAS on non-iXsystems hardware.

The reason why we don't offer support in general for other hardware is that it's very hard for us (or anyone) to provide a positive customer experience. I'll explain:

In order for any storage system (*especially* ZFS) to function well, there are at least a dozen pieces of hardware (and their associated firmware) that all need to play nicely with one another, all the way down to the model number and firmware of the hard drive being used, for example. When using other hardware (either from an OEM like Dell or HP, or a system built by the customer), we find that the majority of customer issues are caused by hardware or firmware incompatibility and/or configuration issues. However, if we aren't familiar with that specific model of, say, Lenovo server, we then need to spend a lot of time combing through hardware model numbers and respective firmware before we can even begin isolating what the issue might be. This leads to protracted, iterative troubleshooting, prolonged support calls, and sometimes it results in unsolvable issues.

We know this because early on in the FreeNAS days we tried this model. Customers weren't very happy, and it was incredibly difficult for us to charge fees that would cover our costs that customers would still be willing to pay.

And, this is certainly not unique to FreeNAS/TrueNAS. Frankly, it's a common issue with all software-defined scale-up storage, as evidenced by the way other companies have addressed this issue over time:

Early on in the software-defined storage (SDS) days, they all said, "Install this software on *any* x86 hardware and you can have a 'NetApp on commodity hardware.'"

Fast forward a couple years, and the ones that were still in business said, "Install this software on something from this specific list of components on our Hardware Compatibility List (HCL) and you can have a 'NetApp on commodity hardware.'"

Fast forward a couple years, and the even smaller group that were still in business said, "Buy one of these specific Dell/HPE/SuperMicro models, and they'll either come preinstalled with the software, or contact us, we'll do a hardware check, and if it's approved, we'll give you the software for you to install."

So, at that point you're essentially buying and building a "disaggregated appliance" from two separate vendors, which increases complexity, costs the same or more, and ultimately costs you more operationally to support.

This is more or less where we are today in the world of scale-up SDS, which is why most of our competitors are no longer around. Scale-out SDS makes this a bit easier, but it comes with a host of other issues and extra costs.

Sorry for the long-winded answer, but as much as we'd love to offer support for "FreeNAS/TrueNAS CORE installed on anything", you probably wouldn't be super happy with the experience, and you likely wouldn't save any money (and certainly not time) over simply having purchased a system through us.

I don't have a solution, but I'm going to disagree that it's as much or more $ and more complex as that's simply not the case when you DIY a whitebox supermicro system with all enterprise parts vs. buying a complete system off the rack.

At no time was I suggesting to offer support for cobbled together random brands\parts all thrown together. I had assumed you'd still have to have "supermicro chassis\backplane, supermicro motherboard, LSI\?? firwmare, firwmare version __ minimum, all matching HDD\SSD\NVME\etc..."

I'm just tossing out ideas :)
 

brettdavis

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I don't have a solution, but I'm going to disagree that it's as much or more $ and more complex as that's simply not the case when you DIY a whitebox supermicro system with all enterprise parts vs. buying a complete system off the rack.
If you're talking about hardware only for a one-off system, I'd tend to agree with you. Used/refurbed hardware, eBay, etc can definitely save you money on a DIY whitebox SuperMicro as opposed to, say, buying the same SuperMicro server built by iXsystems. Of course, that's tough for companies to do at scale, so that model is only effective for smaller deployments.

Using brand new hardware, it'd be closer than you think, and certainly more expensive for you to do it yourself once you factor in your time in buying/building/supporting said systems.

At no time was I suggesting to offer support for cobbled together random brands\parts all thrown together. I had assumed you'd still have to have "supermicro chassis\backplane, supermicro motherboard, LSI\?? firwmare, firwmare version __ minimum, all matching HDD\SSD\NVME\etc..."

I'm just tossing out ideas :)
Yeah, no sweat! Love the ideas and the discussion.

What you're suggesting is an HCL model. It can work. It just doesn't provide a better or more cost-effective experience. Companies have followed the HCL recipe (iXsystems included), and most have moved away from it or are very restrictive about it, usually requiring the hardware configuration to be validated by the software company's support team before you can install the software. And, that's only after you've purchased the software license, of course! Overall, it's time consuming and issue-prone, and once you've factored in the software licensing costs, it's typically more expensive than buying an equivalent appliance, and that's before you've factored the additional operational costs of working with two distinct companies to support one product.

And, I'm not just defending our model because it's the way we do it. Since we aren't a name brand like DellEMC, Netapp, etc, the only way we can compete is by providing more value per dollar. So, if we thought we could provide even more value AND a better customer experience using an HCL, believe me, we'd do it! :)
 

lostmind

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Jan 5, 2013
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Hey Brett,

I run a webhosting company, we're fairly technical here.

We also live with thin margins, so when we see relabeled supermicro gear selling for 3-4x the costs we normally pay (and we get no massive discounts), it is very frustrating. Not that I can say IXSystems does this, as my inquiry was only sent early friday morning and hasn't been replied too yet - completely understandable.

We like to be hands on, especially because in our experience 3rd party support is never as responsive as we'd like. So we do like the HCL model here.

I also can say that for us, no list price is a BIG turn off. In our company, we always say that "if the price isn't listed, we can't afford it."
 

BoredSysadmin

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Mar 2, 2019
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Hey Brett,

I run a webhosting company, we're fairly technical here.

We also live with thin margins, so when we see relabeled supermicro gear selling for 3-4x the costs we normally pay (and we get no massive discounts), it is very frustrating. Not that I can say IXSystems does this, as my inquiry was only sent early friday morning and hasn't been replied too yet - completely understandable.

We like to be hands on, especially because in our experience 3rd party support is never as responsive as we'd like. So we do like the HCL model here.

I also can say that for us, no list price is a BIG turn off. In our company, we always say that "if the price isn't listed, we can't afford it."
see some list prices here. iXsystems Products & Solutions | OpenStorageNAS.com
Quoted prices are lower
 

tjk

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Mar 3, 2013
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Are they 80% lower though? Until then I'll just keep buying NOS Xyratex HB-1235 + application controllers.
What are you using to get HA between servers?

I have a bunch of those old 1235s I use for cheap and deep storage.
 

BeTeP

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Mar 23, 2019
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Even though the Xyratex hardware (the midplane and controllers) supports HA (dual controller config) - there are no open source drivers available. I had some limited success extracting missing pieces from various commercial products. But since I could not legally sell the resulting Frankenstein monster - I abandoned the project.

The only HA related thing I have done was a couple of POC CEPH deployments - 3 nodes with a single controller each.
The reality is that most of my deployments do not need HA. Most clients very much prefer the lower price of a single controller config anyway.
 
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brettdavis

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Hey Brett,

I run a webhosting company, we're fairly technical here.

We also live with thin margins, so when we see relabeled supermicro gear selling for 3-4x the costs we normally pay (and we get no massive discounts), it is very frustrating. Not that I can say IXSystems does this, as my inquiry was only sent early friday morning and hasn't been replied too yet - completely understandable.
Hi lostmind,

iX also ran a small web hosting business for a short time during the early 2000s, so I'm familiar with some of the challenges. Margins were thin back then, so I can only imagine what they're like today.

Was your inquiry for TrueNAS, a FreeNAS system, or just general purpose servers?

We like to be hands on, especially because in our experience 3rd party support is never as responsive as we'd like. So we do like the HCL model here.
This is the beauty of FreeNAS. If you're a company that prefers to be hands-on, can self-support, and you don't need HA, then FreeNAS can be a perfect fit. You can install it on the hardware of your choice and you don't owe us a dime. And, FreeNAS does have an HCL, by the way (it's effectively the FreeBSD HCL -- our FreeNAS versions are in sync with the FreeBSD version to make things easy)

If your company hits the scale where being so hands-on isn't sustainable, or if you decide you need HA or support because the data is critical, then that's where TrueNAS systems come in. TrueNAS is also fully compatible with FreeNAS, so you can use them to replicate to one another if you see fit.

I also can say that for us, no list price is a BIG turn off. In our company, we always say that "if the price isn't listed, we can't afford it."
This is good feedback, and I understand the sentiment. Luckily we have a range of products, so I'm hopeful you'll be able to find something within your budget.

We do list pricing guidance, but again, our issue is that the systems are so configurable that it's difficult for us to display on the website. It's been a tough problem to solve.

The OpenStorageNAS.com link posted by BoredSysadmin above is one of our Reseller partners. They've listed some example configs and pricing (though, looking at their pricing, it looks a little out of date).