Enterprise SSD "small deals"

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michel333

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michel333 said:
You can buy the high profile bracket. If I remember correctly it is the same high profile bracket as for lsi sas 9300 16i
Click to expand...
And yes, the SX350 are better than sx300. You need to put a fan to cool them, otherwise the system will shutdown
 
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michel333

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luckylinux said:
Sorry, I meant that it's only available in HIGH Profile Version (the 6.4 TB Variant).

You CANNOT buy it in Low Profile Version, you'd have to chop half the Card up if you wanted to install it in a 2U Chassis (Low Profile only) and at that Point it wouldn't work anymore.
Click to expand...
You are right! For low profile you need the 3.2 tb version
 
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luckylinux

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ca3y6 said:
Agree. To me they only make sense if either you need the higher performance but don't have the PCIe lanes to go U.2; or you need drives larger than 7.64TB (max size of SATA enterprise SSDs).
Click to expand...
It cannot be that it consumes more Power than NVME ...

The P4608 I just received claim up to 44W of Power at full Load. I still need to test them though. I guess/fear that ASPM is not going to work.
 
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luckylinux

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ca3y6 said:
You are taking a bit of an extreme. A typical samsung SAS SSD will idle at 5w and consume 12w full, 18w for SAS4. Samsung U.2 will idle at 7w and full power are 20-25w. So consumes a bit more than SAS, but in the same order of magnitude vs SATA.
Click to expand...
I'd be interested to see how much it Idles or "almost" Idles the P4608 I mean.

I still need to make up my Mind about which RAID/Mirror Configuration to use since it's 2 Drives in 1. I would guess 2x2 Mirror or possible RAIDZ-2 with 2 of these ? Or maybe just a single Drive Striped + a HDD for automatic Backup on the same Machine ?
 
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Markess

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luckylinux said:
That probably rules out most NVMe Drives, surely U.2 and PCIe, leaving possible M.2 up to the Game (assuming they will do ASPM).

So you are left with SATA and SAS, out of which SATA is much better in Terms of Power Consumption, but also quite a bit more expensive in the 2nd Hand Market (around twice the Price as SAS/NVMe ?).
Click to expand...
Yeah, SATA is definitely indicated. But prices are on them are kinda nuts right now, so I keep checking options to see if there's some well behaved PCIe/SAS that I may have missed.

The "Family NAS" has a handful of literally unused when I got them 1.92TB SM863s I got for $44 each a couple years ago when prices were low. Running out of space now, so I'm weighing expanding the pool, starting over with higher capacities, or setting up a second NAS just for my files that I can put on the 10g side of the home network (a.k.a.my side).

Funny how my family complain about heat and noise, but don’t mind the cooling necessary for the Optane 905Ps I put in their Gaming/Workstation boxes. ;)

nexox said:
They aren't that difficult to cool, I have a 6.4TB model that's usually pretty lightly-loaded which just has an 80mm Noctua sitting next to it, blowing sideways across the card (and my NIC,) that been enough. Last I looked there are a few of those model on ebay that you could probably get for around $200 each if you make an offer on more than one.
Click to expand...

Hmm......
 
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luckylinux

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ca3y6 said:
per specs, I think P4608 idles at 5w
Click to expand...
Do you trust Datasheets :D ?

It all depends what exactly is meant by "Idle" and "Load". I personally wouldn't expect much power Draw for an Idle System that is only writing Systemd Logs to Disk at a Rate of say 5MB/s but let's see.
 
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kapone

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nexox said:
They aren't that difficult to cool, I have a 6.4TB model that's usually pretty lightly-loaded which just has an 80mm Noctua sitting next to it, blowing sideways across the card (and my NIC,) that been enough. Last I looked there are a few of those model on ebay that you could probably get for around $200 each if you make an offer on more than one.
Click to expand...
They're not. The industrial FPGA used is rated for >100C and the drive won't even throttle till like 85-90C or so. Take a look at my SAN nodes:



You can see the SX350 6.4TB crammed in there (2x Mellanox 40g cards, the SX350 and an Adaptec 8 series) with no direct fan on it per se (it gets a bit of flow from the fan on the Adaptec card. Keep in mind, this all has 48 3.5" spinners in front of it...and I use SAS disks...so lots of heat gets thrown at the server components. However, this chassis has six 120mm fans (3x in the front, and 3x in the mid plane), so a fair amount of airflow, but pretty warm/hot.

- The SX350 idles at ~55-60C when the disks are not spinning actively.
- When a RAID consistency check kicks in (all 48 HDDs spin), the SX350 gets to ~67-68C.
- When a RAID consistency check kicks in AND I load the SX350 with some pretty heavy writes, it gets to ~75C. This is a rare/worst case condition.

I've never had the drive report any errors. :)
 
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whoknew123

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How does the sale cycle look for these used drives typically look? Is there a steady flow throughout the year or do you see massive dumps Q4 in the new fiscal year?
 
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whoknew123

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luckylinux said:
If somebody wants SATA there is this. Not as a good deal as SAS and lately NVMe, but still good (I guess) and open to Offers.

60 Pieces available at this Date.

Note that it's CISCO Branded so do your own Diligence in Terms of what you can expect as FW Updates etc.

SAMSUNG 3.84TB 2.5 6GB SATA SSD PM883 MZ-7LH3T80 3.8TB SATA SSD MZ7LH3T8HMLT - 190 USD open to Offers

www.ebay.com

SAMSUNG 3.84TB 2.5 6GB SATA SSD PM883 MZ-7LH3T80 3.8TB SATA SSD MZ7LH3T8HMLT | eBay

Years of IT. Final Health Grade 83.6%. All drives tested and wiped of data. Degraded Health 83.6%.
www.ebay.com
Click to expand...
I offered $110 for 10x and got auto declined. Just data point for others.
 
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josh

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luckylinux

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POG-Knuckles

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luckylinux said:
No Worries :) . It's not a bad Deal, but it's not a Great Deal either :).

If you look at this Post from @ca3y6 General Rule of Thumb is:
  • < 45 USD / TB = Cheap
  • < 35 USD / TB = Great

So according to that Rule the Listing is indeed Cheap (45 USD / TB x 4 TB = 180 USD for a 4TB Drive), but Personally I saw a lot lower than that :).

Lowest I think for SAS Drive was 80 USD for 3.84 TB. NVMe 100 USD for 3.2 - 4 TB with a few Exceptions (60 EUR for 3.2TB and 142 EUR for 6.4 TB).

EDIT 1: Main Issue is that Seller is NOT Open for Offers on this one :( .
Click to expand...
Thats true offers would be nice.

Thanks for the information! its very helpfull for me.
 
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luckylinux

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So ... I just quickly tested the 3 x Intel / Oracle P4608 I got for around 140 EUR each.

They all came with running Firmware QDV1RF35, while on the Label it was QDV1RD28.

Idle Power Consumption, based on the Supermicro PSU I2C Reporting, went from around 78W to around 110W. So around 10W Idle each.

The Good News is that these old Devices seem to be able to support ASPM:
Code: 
88:00.0 Non-Volatile memory controller: Intel Corporation NVMe Datacenter SSD [3DNAND, Beta Rock Controller] (prog-if 02 [NVM Express])
    Subsystem: Oracle/SUN NVMe PCIe 3.0 SSD 6.4TB AIC (P4608)
    Control: I/O- Mem+ BusMaster+ SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR+ FastB2B- DisINTx+
    Status: Cap+ 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B- ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- <TAbort- <MAbort- >SERR- <PERR- INTx-
    Latency: 0, Cache Line Size: 32 bytes
    Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 48
    NUMA node: 1
    IOMMU group: 19
    Region 0: Memory at fb910000 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16K]
    Expansion ROM at fb900000 [disabled] [size=64K]
    Capabilities: [40] Power Management version 3
        Flags: PMEClk- DSI- D1- D2- AuxCurrent=0mA PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot-,D3cold-)
        Status: D0 NoSoftRst+ PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
    Capabilities: [50] MSI-X: Enable+ Count=129 Masked-
        Vector table: BAR=0 offset=00002000
        PBA: BAR=0 offset=00003000
    Capabilities: [60] Express (v2) Endpoint, MSI 00
        DevCap:    MaxPayload 512 bytes, PhantFunc 0, Latency L0s <64ns, L1 <64us
            ExtTag+ AttnBtn- AttnInd- PwrInd- RBE+ FLReset+ SlotPowerLimit 25W
        DevCtl:    CorrErr- NonFatalErr- FatalErr- UnsupReq-
            RlxdOrd- ExtTag+ PhantFunc- AuxPwr- NoSnoop+ FLReset-
            MaxPayload 256 bytes, MaxReadReq 512 bytes
        DevSta:    CorrErr- NonFatalErr- FatalErr- UnsupReq- AuxPwr- TransPend-
        LnkCap:    Port #0, Speed 8GT/s, Width x4, ASPM L0s, Exit Latency L0s <64ns
            ClockPM- Surprise- LLActRep- BwNot- ASPMOptComp+
        LnkCtl:    ASPM L0s Enabled; RCB 64 bytes, Disabled- CommClk-
            ExtSynch- ClockPM- AutWidDis- BWInt- AutBWInt-
        LnkSta:    Speed 8GT/s, Width x4
            TrErr- Train- SlotClk+ DLActive- BWMgmt- ABWMgmt-
        DevCap2: Completion Timeout: Range BCD, TimeoutDis+ NROPrPrP- LTR+
             10BitTagComp- 10BitTagReq- OBFF Not Supported, ExtFmt- EETLPPrefix-
             EmergencyPowerReduction Not Supported, EmergencyPowerReductionInit-
             FRS- TPHComp- ExtTPHComp-
             AtomicOpsCap: 32bit- 64bit- 128bitCAS-
        DevCtl2: Completion Timeout: 50us to 50ms, TimeoutDis- LTR- 10BitTagReq- OBFF Disabled,
             AtomicOpsCtl: ReqEn-
        LnkCap2: Supported Link Speeds: 2.5-8GT/s, Crosslink- Retimer- 2Retimers- DRS-
        LnkCtl2: Target Link Speed: 8GT/s, EnterCompliance- SpeedDis-
             Transmit Margin: Normal Operating Range, EnterModifiedCompliance- ComplianceSOS-
             Compliance Preset/De-emphasis: -6dB de-emphasis, 0dB preshoot
        LnkSta2: Current De-emphasis Level: -6dB, EqualizationComplete+ EqualizationPhase1+
             EqualizationPhase2+ EqualizationPhase3+ LinkEqualizationRequest-
             Retimer- 2Retimers- CrosslinkRes: unsupported
    Capabilities: [a0] MSI: Enable- Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+
        Address: 0000000000000000  Data: 0000
    Capabilities: [100 v1] Advanced Error Reporting
        UESta:    DLP- SDES- TLP- FCP- CmpltTO- CmpltAbrt- UnxCmplt- RxOF- MalfTLP- ECRC- UnsupReq- ACSViol-
        UEMsk:    DLP- SDES- TLP- FCP- CmpltTO- CmpltAbrt- UnxCmplt- RxOF- MalfTLP- ECRC- UnsupReq- ACSViol-
        UESvrt:    DLP+ SDES+ TLP- FCP+ CmpltTO- CmpltAbrt- UnxCmplt- RxOF+ MalfTLP+ ECRC- UnsupReq- ACSViol-
        CESta:    RxErr- BadTLP- BadDLLP- Rollover- Timeout- AdvNonFatalErr-
        CEMsk:    RxErr- BadTLP- BadDLLP- Rollover- Timeout- AdvNonFatalErr+
        AERCap:    First Error Pointer: 00, ECRCGenCap+ ECRCGenEn- ECRCChkCap+ ECRCChkEn-
            MultHdrRecCap- MultHdrRecEn- TLPPfxPres- HdrLogCap-
        HeaderLog: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
    Capabilities: [150 v1] Virtual Channel
        Caps:    LPEVC=0 RefClk=100ns PATEntryBits=1
        Arb:    Fixed- WRR32- WRR64- WRR128-
        Ctrl:    ArbSelect=Fixed
        Status:    InProgress-
        VC0:    Caps:    PATOffset=00 MaxTimeSlots=1 RejSnoopTrans-
            Arb:    Fixed- WRR32- WRR64- WRR128- TWRR128- WRR256-
            Ctrl:    Enable+ ID=0 ArbSelect=Fixed TC/VC=01
            Status:    NegoPending- InProgress-
    Capabilities: [180 v1] Power Budgeting <?>
    Capabilities: [190 v1] Alternative Routing-ID Interpretation (ARI)
        ARICap:    MFVC- ACS-, Next Function: 0
        ARICtl:    MFVC- ACS-, Function Group: 0
    Capabilities: [270 v1] Device Serial Number 55-cd-2e-41-50-49-f9-f1
    Capabilities: [2a0 v1] Secondary PCI Express
        LnkCtl3: LnkEquIntrruptEn- PerformEqu-
        LaneErrStat: 0
    Capabilities: [2d0 v1] Latency Tolerance Reporting
        Max snoop latency: 0ns
        Max no snoop latency: 0ns
    Capabilities: [310 v1] L1 PM Substates
        L1SubCap: PCI-PM_L1.2- PCI-PM_L1.1- ASPM_L1.2- ASPM_L1.1- L1_PM_Substates-
        L1SubCtl1: PCI-PM_L1.2- PCI-PM_L1.1- ASPM_L1.2- ASPM_L1.1-
        L1SubCtl2:
    Kernel driver in use: nvme
    Kernel modules: nvme
Obviously I have some other Issues with the Supermicro BIOS on the Supermicro X10DRi Motherboard, so ASPM is NOT working, in the best case I just need to upgrade BIOS & BMC Firmware, otherwise I'll need to patch FDT ACPI Tables as I already did in the Past, as indicated by lspci -vvv:
Code: 
00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation Xeon E7 v4/Xeon E5 v4/Xeon E3 v4/Xeon D DMI2 (rev 01)
    Subsystem: Super Micro Computer Inc Xeon E7 v4/Xeon E5 v4/Xeon E3 v4/Xeon D DMI2
    Control: I/O- Mem- BusMaster- SpecCycle- MemWINV- VGASnoop- ParErr- Stepping- SERR- FastB2B- DisINTx+
    Status: Cap+ 66MHz- UDF- FastB2B- ParErr- DEVSEL=fast >TAbort- <TAbort- <MAbort- >SERR- <PERR- INTx-
    Interrupt: pin A routed to IRQ 0
    NUMA node: 0
    IOMMU group: 84
    Capabilities: [90] Express (v2) Root Port (Slot-), MSI 00
        DevCap:    MaxPayload 128 bytes, PhantFunc 0
            ExtTag- RBE+
        DevCtl:    CorrErr- NonFatalErr- FatalErr- UnsupReq-
            RlxdOrd- ExtTag- PhantFunc- AuxPwr- NoSnoop-
            MaxPayload 128 bytes, MaxReadReq 128 bytes
        DevSta:    CorrErr- NonFatalErr- FatalErr- UnsupReq- AuxPwr- TransPend-
        LnkCap:    Port #0, Speed 5GT/s, Width x4, ASPM L1, Exit Latency L1 <16us
            ClockPM- Surprise+ LLActRep+ BwNot+ ASPMOptComp+
        LnkCtl:    ASPM Disabled; RCB 64 bytes, Disabled- CommClk-
            ExtSynch- ClockPM- AutWidDis- BWInt- AutBWInt-
        LnkSta:    Speed unknown, Width x0
            TrErr- Train- SlotClk- DLActive- BWMgmt- ABWMgmt-
        RootCap: CRSVisible-
        RootCtl: ErrCorrectable- ErrNon-Fatal- ErrFatal- PMEIntEna- CRSVisible-
        RootSta: PME ReqID 0000, PMEStatus- PMEPending-
        DevCap2: Completion Timeout: Range BCD, TimeoutDis+ NROPrPrP- LTR-
             10BitTagComp- 10BitTagReq- OBFF Not Supported, ExtFmt- EETLPPrefix-
             EmergencyPowerReduction Not Supported, EmergencyPowerReductionInit-
             FRS- LN System CLS Not Supported, TPHComp+ ExtTPHComp- ARIFwd-
             AtomicOpsCap: Routing- 32bit+ 64bit+ 128bitCAS+
        DevCtl2: Completion Timeout: 50us to 50ms, TimeoutDis- LTR- 10BitTagReq- OBFF Disabled, ARIFwd-
             AtomicOpsCtl: ReqEn- EgressBlck-
        LnkCap2: Supported Link Speeds: 2.5-5GT/s, Crosslink- Retimer- 2Retimers- DRS-
        LnkCtl2: Target Link Speed: 2.5GT/s, EnterCompliance- SpeedDis-
             Transmit Margin: Normal Operating Range, EnterModifiedCompliance- ComplianceSOS-
             Compliance Preset/De-emphasis: -6dB de-emphasis, 0dB preshoot
        LnkSta2: Current De-emphasis Level: -6dB, EqualizationComplete- EqualizationPhase1-
             EqualizationPhase2- EqualizationPhase3- LinkEqualizationRequest-
             Retimer- 2Retimers- CrosslinkRes: unsupported
    Capabilities: [e0] Power Management version 3
        Flags: PMEClk- DSI- D1- D2- AuxCurrent=0mA PME(D0-,D1-,D2-,D3hot-,D3cold-)
        Status: D0 NoSoftRst+ PME-Enable- DSel=0 DScale=0 PME-
    Capabilities: [100 v1] Vendor Specific Information: ID=0002 Rev=0 Len=00c <?>
    Capabilities: [144 v1] Vendor Specific Information: ID=0004 Rev=1 Len=03c <?>
And dmesg:
Code: 
[    0.000000] Command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-6.12.22+bpo-amd64 root=UUID=afadc67e-4b3e-40e8-bf24-9b1c9a25f39a ro acpi.debug_layer=0x2 acpi.debug_level=0xffffffff pcie_aspm=force quiet pci=realloc=off mpt3sas.msix_disable=1 acpi.debug_layer=0x2 acpi.debug_level=0xffffffff pcie_aspm=force
[    0.029713] Kernel command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-6.12.22+bpo-amd64 root=UUID=afadc67e-4b3e-40e8-bf24-9b1c9a25f39a ro acpi.debug_layer=0x2 acpi.debug_level=0xffffffff pcie_aspm=force quiet pci=realloc=off mpt3sas.msix_disable=1 acpi.debug_layer=0x2 acpi.debug_level=0xffffffff pcie_aspm=force
[    0.029810] PCIe ASPM is forcibly enabled
[    0.029902] PCIe ASPM is forcibly enabled
[    0.718283] ACPI FADT declares the system doesn't support PCIe ASPM, so disable it
[    0.818764] acpi PNP0A03:02: _OSC: OS supports [ExtendedConfig ASPM ClockPM Segments MSI HPX-Type3]
[    0.821404] acpi PNP0A03:02: FADT indicates ASPM is unsupported, using BIOS configuration
[    0.827852] acpi PNP0A03:03: _OSC: OS supports [ExtendedConfig ASPM ClockPM Segments MSI HPX-Type3]
[    0.829228] acpi PNP0A03:03: FADT indicates ASPM is unsupported, using BIOS configuration
[    0.846275] acpi PNP0A08:00: _OSC: OS supports [ExtendedConfig ASPM ClockPM Segments MSI HPX-Type3]
[    0.847150] acpi PNP0A08:00: FADT indicates ASPM is unsupported, using BIOS configuration
[    0.870725] pci 0000:00:03.2: ASPM: current common clock configuration is inconsistent, reconfiguring
[    0.879224] acpi PNP0A08:01: _OSC: OS supports [ExtendedConfig ASPM ClockPM Segments MSI HPX-Type3]
[    0.880171] acpi PNP0A08:01: FADT indicates ASPM is unsupported, using BIOS configuration
EDIT 1: I actually forgot to mention the most Important Part :D . BOTH 3.2TB "Drives" on each of the 3 Physical Drives were Detected (6x3.2TB Total) :).

I guess the best might be a RAIDZ1 across the 3 Drives on the 1st 3.2TB Device striped together with another RAIDZ1 across the 3 Drives on the 2nd 3.2TB Device.
 
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Filez

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Feb 18, 2019
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luckylinux said:
Well I still [have to] use it at work (regrettably) :rolleyes: .

At least HyperV on Windows 11 is quite Decent so you can run Linux VM quite well (provided you format them with mkfs.ext4 -G 4096 so that it doesn't result in a 200% Space utilization Overhead on the Host :)). But yeah, I don't really like Powershell Scripting :p.
Click to expand...
mkfs.ext4 -G 4096 -- is that true for KVM on ubuntu as well?
 
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richardm

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Sep 27, 2013
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luckylinux said:
That probably rules out most NVMe Drives, surely U.2 and PCIe, leaving possible M.2 up to the Game (assuming they will do ASPM).

So you are left with SATA and SAS, out of which SATA is much better in Terms of Power Consumption, but also quite a bit more expensive in the 2nd Hand Market (around twice the Price as SAS/NVMe ?).
Click to expand...
FWIW the uncommon Intel SSD DC P4501 was specifically marketed as a power-sipping datacenter NVMe drive:

"The P4501 will support tunable power limits: the U.2 version can be capped at 8W, 10W or 12.5W while the M.2 version will support limits of 6W or 8.25W. Idle power is not a priority for datacenter SSDs, but the U.2 version is specified for less than 5W at idle and the M.2 version is specified for less than 3W."

OK, not really a power-sipper. But better than most.

The even rarer DC P4601 (also a low-power design) -- was apparently handed over to Solidigm. It's so rare that I can't find a spec sheet from either brand.
 
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acquacow

acquacow

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There's a some slightly incorrect info here regarding the ioDrives you all have been discussing (I worked at Fusion-io/Sandisk for 7 years building high-perf storage systems).

The SX/PX/300/350 are all the same drives. Same FPGA, same firmware, etc... The only real differentiating factor is that the SX300s are on Micron NAND and SX350s were released with SanDisk NAND after they bought us. They all have slightly different warrantied marketing specs for speeds and edurances as the only real difference. The rated capacities/wear life differences are just a factor of the factory over-provisioning at the drive/driver level, which is completely user-adjustable.

The cards by default will limit themselves to 25W under write workloads if they can't get a supported wattage metric from the slot itself. You can enable PCI-e power override to support up to 75W in a proper slot, but the full-height cards max out around 55W at peak write. None of the cards will ever hit 75W.

Current linux support is best handled by using the drivers over at RemixVSL: RemixVSL

That's what I run in proxmox currently.
 
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luckylinux

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whoknew123 said:
Does anyone happen to have/willing to share a list of drive models/capacity and what you consider a good deal?

I’m only looking for 2-3 drives so I don’t mind paying a 5-10% premium if it means I have them in hand sooner. With all the options out there it’d take me ages to put together a list.
Click to expand...
Except that it's NOT only 5-10% different between a Great Deal, a Good Deal and a "Normal" (or normal-ish) Price. Typically it's around 100% Difference, possibly even 150-200% :p .

It depends also where you Live, if you include VAT or not (if you live in e.g. the EU), which Drive Technology (SATA, SAS, M.2, U.2, PCIe) and which Capacity you are looking for.

The best Deals I had so far were (I mean, not really a secret, most were announced in this Thread, plus the Netapp X357A from another Thread in this Section of the Forum):
- Intel P4608 6.4TB PCIe (Oracle branded): approx. 140 EUR/piece including Shipping & including VAT
- Intel P4500 4.0TB U.2: approx. 103 USD / piece + Shipping + VAT
- Micron 7300 MAX 3.2TB U.2 including Adapter: approx. 70 EUR/piece including Shipping & including VAT
- TOSHIBA PX05SRB384 (Netapp branded X357A) SAS: approx. 82 USD / piece + Shipping + VAT

NOT that great, but this is what I bought before the Thread started, this is already what I would consider "reasonable" (half the Price compared to used List Price in eBay Germany):
- Samsung PM983 MZQLB1T9HAJR-00007 1.92TB U.2: approx. 90 EUR / Piece including Shipping & including VAT
- Samsung PM983 960GB M.2: approx. 50 EUR / Piece including Shipping & including VAT

EDIT 1: of course, some of the Prices needed to be Negotiated (send an Offer). Problem of course being that the "hotter" the Deal is, the more likely somebody else will "snatch" it while you wait for your Offer to be approved. So some of them you take the "Risk" send an Offer an Wait, some of them you Buy as listed Price :D .
 
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