EU EATON 5P1550IR 1550VA 1U UPS available from various eBay Sellers in Large Quantity

[BlueFox]

However I believe your statement is quite incorrect: the Voltages diverge because the UPS effectively disconnects from the Grid and starts outputting its own Voltage through the Inverter.

This is the normal working principle for a UPS which does NOT normally do double Conversion (charge Battery + provide Power to the Load), EXCEPT when the Grid Voltage gets unstable (Overvoltage / Undervoltage / etc):

Actually, you're the mistaken one about that. You're describing a standby UPS, which is the absolute cheapest type and generally only found in the lowest end consumer units.

Most units are line-interactive (which is distinct from double-conversion as they're not floating the battery) and do feed mains through a transformer to step up/down as needed based on input voltage. They only cut over to battery in the event the power drops out completely or the voltage is outside the range of the transformer.

 

[luckylinux]

Oh there were some bad years for APC when they felt the need to cut corners to compete, and that would explain some of what you experienced.

Interesting your tripping issue was also in an apartment--mine too. Maybe that's a function of how the grounding of multitenant units are done--who knows. I just know that the exact same unit is working fine now in my office on a circuit with a bunch of other stuff plugged in.

I've seen status codes like that too, and many times even though unrelated it was just that the battery was dead. Yep, not their best years on those units.

The Earthing / Grounding shouldn't be a Factor if at all, unless at the "NEW" site the Earthing is MUCH worse !

Culprit number 1 is most likely a very old RCD in the old Installation.

Depending how [bad] the old Installation is, it's also possible that somebody borrowed a neutral somewhere, so some current would always return via another Path. That would require that only a small Portion of the Current is redirected via another Path, which while possible, I'd say it's unlikely at ~ 10A.

A 30mA RCD / GFCI should NOT trip below 50% of Rating and must Trip below 100% of Rating, so your maximum Load Impedance to trip a 30mA RCD should be between 230V/0.03A = 7.6 kOhm and 230/0.015 = 15.3 kOhm. Those are quite big Values.

Now, granted, earth Faults are not short-circuits so the Fault itself has some Impedance which is definitively non-negligible (100 Ohm ... 10 kOhm ?).

There are several Things to consider, but as a general Rule:

• (of course I exclude the Case of an IT Earthing System, since the RCD will never trip in such Case, but you'd be relying on Insulation Monitoring via an Insulation Monitoring Device or IMD, AKA Voltage Monitoring instead of Differential Current Monitoring)
• If somebody forgot to connect the Earth (PE) Wire to a Plug, the Earth Resistance is going to be very very High (theoretically Infinite)
• For a TN-S or TN-C-S System where your Earth is coming from the Supply Transformer, Earth Impedance is quite Low / very Low (think about Range of 0.1 Ohm ... 10 Ohm as a ball Park Figure)
• Only Issue where you COULD have a high earth Impedance would be a TT System (Earth Electrode in the Ground), but it would be a very bad one at > 1666 Ohm Earth Electrode Impedance, potentially made worse by contributing Factors (soil is almost always Dry, single Electrode, bad/corroded Connection, no big Structure nearby [Concrete, especially reinforced Concrete, will almost always be a better "electrode" and improve Earthing than whatever 6mm2 or 16 mm2 Copper Wire will ever do, simply because of the huge Surface], etc).

See for instance:
https://www.electrical-installation.org/enwiki/TT_system_-_Principle

If the Earthing on your new Installation is quite bad, at least speaking from my European Perspective and NOT US Mid-Point Grounding of Transformer (0 +/- 120V -> 240V Supply), the Issue would appear in Europe as a fairly big Neutral - Earth Voltage (which is normally & ideally 0V).

 

[luckylinux]

Actually, you're the mistaken one about that. You're describing a standby UPS, which is the absolute cheapest type and generally only found in the lowest end consumer units.

Most units are line-interactive (which is distinct from double-conversion as they're not floating the battery) and do feed mains through a transformer to step up/down as needed based on input voltage. They only cut over to battery in the event the power drops out completely or the voltage is outside the range of the transformer.

OK, where is that Transformer then ?

I have some 50 Hz 24V 1200V Transformers at Home (bought standalone, NOT in a UPS !), I can tell you you can FEEL how heavy those Things are: 13 kg each.

1500VA is closer to 17 kg for the Transformer in the same Series that I have.

1200 VA you are probably looking at around 150mm x 150mm x 150mm.

1500 VA you are probably looking at around 175mm x 175mm x 175mm.

Maybe a bit less Iron in the US (although more lossy) since 60Hz, but Still.

I believe you are rather describing an Autotransformer which is a special Type of Transformer with much less Short-Circuit Impedance and no Isolation at all.

Regardless, for a Transformer to vary the Output Voltage, it needs to be adjustable (heh ). Whether it's a Variac (brand Name) where you turn a Knob or whether it's some Brushes run by an electric Motor that moves the Tap Brushes up and down along a Column of Winding (like an On-Load Voltage Transformer / Stabilizer would do), it still needs to be adjustable.

Of course you can do the same with a Power Converter / Inverter (and much more).

You don't get Fixed Output Voltage for a Variable Input Voltage just by Magic of having a "Transformer" .

EDIT 1: just because of the Size (let alone the Weight), this is NOT something that would fit in a 1U Factor. Sure there are planar transformers for high Frequency Applications, but I believe it would NOT be cost-effective at all for 50/60Hz.

 

[thulle]

@luckylinux why all this speculation instead of just looking up what the UPS does? I have it, I know what it does.

From eaton homepage:

UPS topology 101- Line-interactive UPS. Explore the full range of Eaton Line-interactive UPSs below, with the different types of power supply, form factors and power factors.


In line-interactive UPSs, the UPS passes filtered utility voltage to the load when operating normally, and only switches to battery mode due to bad input frequency or when the input voltage falls outside of the correctable range. This design also provides some line filtering and often regulates voltage by adjusting transformer taps as the input voltage varies.'

You don't get Fixed Output Voltage for a Variable Input Voltage just by Magic of having a "Transformer"

Did you even look at the graph? You can clearly see that the output voltage isn't fixed, it's following the input voltage, but at a lower voltage due to the transformation ration.

 

[BlueFox]

Transformer is part of the UPS. They are certainly not 10kg+ nor that physically large. Fraction of that (at least for units sized to be used with residential circuits). Autotransformers are one type used in UPS, but not the only.

Also, with some basic circuitry, you do not need anything beyond a few relays to change the tap position. Certainly not a motor nor physical knob.

You should just go read up on Wikipedia: Uninterruptible power supply - Wikipedia

 

[luckylinux]

@luckylinux why all this speculation instead of just looking up what the UPS does? I have it, I know what it does.

From eaton homepage:

UPS topology 101- Line-interactive UPS. Explore the full range of Eaton Line-interactive UPSs below, with the different types of power supply, form factors and power factors.


In line-interactive UPSs, the UPS passes filtered utility voltage to the load when operating normally, and only switches to battery mode due to bad input frequency or when the input voltage falls outside of the correctable range. This design also provides some line filtering and often regulates voltage by adjusting transformer taps as the input voltage varies.'

Not really, their Website takes 2 Minutes to load or more .

Did you even look at the graph? You can clearly see that the output voltage isn't fixed, it's following the input voltage, but at a lower voltage due to the transformation ration.

So you mean it has like 3 or 4 Additional Fixed Taps so it steps down to -10%, -20% (and nothing in between of course) ?

That doesn't change the laws of Physics.

Where is that "Transformer" Physically ?

 

[luckylinux]

Transformer is part of the UPS. They are certainly not 10kg+ nor that physically large. Fraction of that (at least for units sized to be used with residential circuits). Autotransformers are one type used in UPS, but not the only.

Also, with some basic circuitry, you do not need anything beyond a few relays to change the tap position. Certainly not a motor nor physical knob.

You should just go read up on Wikipedia: Uninterruptible power supply - Wikipedia

OK that's a Autotransformer with a few additional Fixed Tap Positions that you switch via some Relay/Contactors/Thyristors then, not really "variable" (continuosly).

Then we could agree .

EDIT 1: and of course since it's an AutoTransformer without any Primary/Secondary Isolation, you just have a Copper Winding with some Taps, but without any Iron Circuit, thus MUCH lighter and compact .

 

[thulle]

So you mean it has like 3 or 4 Additional Fixed Taps so it steps down to -10%, -20% (and nothing in between of course) ?

Nah, it's -15% and +15% iirc.

That's a 30s-40s Reaction Time for Overvoltage.

Also that's not the case, the reaction time is pretty instant, it just doesn't trigger until the 15% overvoltage.

 

[luckylinux]

Nah, it's -15% and +15% iirc.

Fair enough (I meant the same in the Positive Direction too BTW) .

Also that's not the case, the reaction time is pretty instant, it just doesn't trigger until the 15% overvoltage.

OK so it had no "predictive" or "timer" Circuit but rather just an Absolute Instantaneous Threshold (reached at last Data Point before the Output Voltage Drops). Fair enough .

 

[thulle]

Two arrived today after a week of shipping, original box inside another box. Rail kit included with each in the box. Switched it with the one I had, and plugged in the monitoring card, everything seems to work as intended.

 

[olev]

Two arrived today after a week of shipping, original box inside another box. Rail kit included with each in the box. Switched it with the one I had, and plugged in the monitoring card, everything seems to work as intended.

Are the fans also fairly loud at idle like with your other unit?
I haven't gotten around to ordering one or two for myself yet.

 

[juw]

Yeah, as I was writing I realize it probably just lowered the RPM here too, but having swapped to a Noctua I couldn't hear it then.

As it seems to be working, do you maybe still know the exact Noctua model you replaced the standard fan with?

Thanks!

 

[juw]

Did anybody try to update the UPS firmware?

The model I got states firmware version number 03.16.0032, current seems to be 04.02.0001,

but the accompanying update manual contains a warning not to upgrade beyond version 03.18:



The firmware version 3.18 seems nowhere to be found though, neither advice how to get on a current / actively supported (?) firmware version.


Does anybody know some more details about this?

Thank you!

 

[thulle]

As it seems to be working, do you maybe still know the exact Noctua model you replaced the standard fan with?

Sorry for the late reply, I bought 3x Noctua NF-A4x20 from a guy on a local forum, so I just used one of those. They came with some vibration dampening rubber mounting pins that worked pretty nicely to mount it with.

Are the fans also fairly loud at idle like with your other unit?
I haven't gotten around to ordering one or two for myself yet.

Yeah, they're no screamers like those meant to cool 1U servers, but not something I'd want to listen to while working.
I got a measurement mic so I could make samples with the different fans, but without level-calibrated playback I'm not sure how useful it'd be anyway?

 

[olev]

I got a measurement mic so I could make samples with the different fans, but without level-calibrated playback I'm not sure how useful it'd be anyway?

Agreed, that's very subjective anyways. I've got some tiny fans I don't mind and others that are obnoxious, even though there are quieter.

Noctua NF-A4x20

Wow, that's really not a lot of static pressure and airflow. But if yours is cool enough with that fan, it makes me think about swapping the stock fan as well.

 

[thulle]

Wow, that's really not a lot of static pressure and airflow. But if yours is cool enough with that fan, it makes me think about swapping the stock fan as well.

The original fan isn't moving that much air either, and my ambient temperature during the seasons w outages have been 5°C-15°C with plenty of free space around the UPS, and it's pretty efficient i guess, so pulling 300W for 25 minutes only resulted in the case being around body temperature, and the heat most concentrated around the batteries.
I would not want to pull 1500W with that fan.

 

[Ebax]

Thanks for the deal. Still got one 174 euro shipped to Finland!

 

[Matta]

Thanks for the deal. Still got one 174 euro shipped to Finland!

When I open the item it says that shipping is only possible to Germany ? How did you get to be shipped elsewhere ? I'm from Croatia (also EU), would like to buy it but only shipping option is Germany.

 

[b3rrytech]

When I open the item it says that shipping is only possible to Germany ? How did you get to be shipped elsewhere ? I'm from Croatia (also EU), would like to buy it but only shipping option is Germany.

I relatively frequently use Mailboxde as a forwarding service from Germany to EU. I can recommend them and they are reasonably prized.

 

[Ebax]

When I open the item it says that shipping is only possible to Germany ? How did you get to be shipped elsewhere ? I'm from Croatia (also EU), would like to buy it but only shipping option is Germany.

I used the contact seller option its after that may not ship to your country and i got email for contact to their customer service and i ordered from them with shipping to Finland. Shipping was about 45euro with GLS freight i think.

Edit: You cant use mail forwarders because there are batteries in the ups and its labeled such on the box. You can literally see the label on ebay...