CWWK/Topton/... Nxxx quad NIC router

[newsboost]

20W seems high for a mostly-idling system. I have an N305 on order, but right now I only have the N200 and it idles around 9W (including 2 x nvme)

I would start by checking power management settings in OPNSense/BIOS:

Oh, thanks a lot! Yes, there's a lot to look into there and it seems it came shipped with the CPU: "Turbo Performance"- and GT: "Default Max Frequency" & "Disable Turbo GT frequency=disabled" settings. So it comes shipped with maximum performance-settings (I've never entered a BIOS that has *SO* many options as this one, there are just a ton of really advanced settings I don't know about, guess I'll see if I can download an AMI-BIOS manual or something to learn what I should tweak).

BTW: Sorry, now it was idling at around 13 W - not sure if I did something else yesterday or made a mistake. Now I'm just ran the "memory stress test" from the Clonezilla ISO and the power consumption was between 22.5 W and 34 W - - and the chassis is definitely hot (these are actual readings, no guesses): I ran the "memory test" for around 15 minutes, so everything was hot, then placed a thermometer in the center of the top of the chassis and the chassis was 47 degrees C - then rebooted and entered the BIOS. By the time I figured out where to see the "System temperature2=52 C", the chassis temp. had dropped to 44 deg. C. So the chassis at this point is 8 degrees C lower than the system temperature - that means I don't want this CPU to run above e.g. 70-80 deg. C without cooling (if that means the chassis will become 60-70 deg. C, which I suspect)... I think the chassis should never be more warm than maybe around 50 deg. C... So I'm strongly considering buying a fan already now...

reddit.com/r/OPNsenseFirewall/comments/i9fa75/opnsense_hardware_power_consumption/

Even if no improvements are to be had, 47 degrees is not an unreasonable temperature to be running at, and keep in mind that the chassis is acting as a CPU heat sink. If you take the cover off a desktop machine, you will often find the heatsink to be quite hot to the touch, particularly under load. This is normal.

I haven't even CPU-stressed the machine yet, only did the "memory stress test" under maximum load with the "Turbo Performance"-settings...

I wouldn't be happy, if the chassis became something like >50 degrees Celcius. I read that it's possible to buy a cooling fan, hence the question about whether I can buy *any* cooling fan which is marked "4010" here in the EU-region and expect it to work (e.g. buy from amazon.de - to avoid waiting 2 weeks or something for this to be shipped from China/Hong Hong)? Or does this machine onlywork with the "4010"-fan from Topton (or similar) in China?

Just to make sure you are aware, you also need to buy an m.2 wifi adapter. Whether you get a Wifi5 (AC) or Wifi6 (AX) adapter will determine what the most suitable antenna is.

Oh, thanks a lot, that makes completely sense! I'll keep that in mind, if I decide I also have to make an order for the 4010-fan, because then I might possibly just upgrade to get wifi-capabilities too... Thanks a lot flips33, I'm very grateful for the help (attached a screenshot of one of the many CPU-setting)!

 

[Oinkweil]

Hi, I'm considering the N100 C variant from Topton or CWWK. I can see the Topton model has TPM2.0 in the specs - something I'm keen on - but CWWK doesn't mention this. Both machines appear identical, but is it safer to assume they may have slightly different chipsets? (I wondered if the N100 might have TPM2.0 built-in, but Intel's product page says nothing - guess not?)

Thanks for any help.

 

[Ceros_X]

In the video

, at around 13:40 min:sec, the guy talks about bad quality and the need for thermal re-pasting. Furthermore, I can see I could've paid a bit more to get WiFi (antennas), AC WiFi (antennas) for US $10, AX WiFi6 (antennas) for US $30, internal 4010 cooling FAN for US $9. My questions:

1) Can I buy any cooling FAN which is marked "4010" and expect it to work (e.g. from amazon) or do I have to buy this specific cooling fan and have it shipped all the way from China/Hong Kong again (prefer to buy it closer, if any "4010" fan works)?
2) If I open up the case, I guess it's easy enough to install the cooling fan myself?

So I'm pretty sure the '4010' fan is just a 40x40x10 fan. There are also 40x40x20mm fans out there. If you want a quiet fan look at this Noctua: https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-Cooling-Blades-Bearing-NF-A4x10/dp/B009NQLT0M/ it's 3 pin so constant on where 4 pin is usually PWM (can set speed etc). With a tiny 40mm fan they usually need to go fast to cool but Noctua is very quiet. If you are comfortable repasting a CPU I'd try that before going with the fan - if you aren't, I'd do the fan first. Installation is just screwing 4 screws into the lid and hooking up the fan to the fan header on the MB - super easy.

 

[B0rg]

I got a new firmware file from cwwk support, flashed it and have the option to disable the beep again in the bios. The hdmi black screen issue is still there but they say it had to do 4k60 hz monitors. On a 1080p monitor the hdmi port should work.

 

[Zer0_C00L]

Any thoughts on when we might start to see something like the R86S-U4 in the N100/N305 spec. A little more oomph from something like the N305 could turn something like the R86S into an absolute ANIMAL! My only hesitation with the R86S-U4 would be the limited single thread performance of the N6005. The extra 10/15/25% single threaded performance from the new 12th Gen chips would allow for basically full 10G routing, and likely even things like Deep Packet inspection etc actually viable.

 

[newsboost]

So I'm pretty sure the '4010' fan is just a 40x40x10 fan. There are also 40x40x20mm fans out there. If you want a quiet fan look at this Noctua: https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-Cooling-Blades-Bearing-NF-A4x10/dp/B009NQLT0M/ it's 3 pin so constant on where 4 pin is usually PWM (can set speed etc). With a tiny 40mm fan they usually need to go fast to cool but Noctua is very quiet. If you are comfortable repasting a CPU I'd try that before going with the fan - if you aren't, I'd do the fan first. Installation is just screwing 4 screws into the lid and hooking up the fan to the fan header on the MB - super easy.

Oh, thanks a lot! I've actually never re-pasted a CPU before, but now that I think about it, maybe the paste is ok because I remember while during the "memory test", that when the "System temperature2" was 52 C, the chassis temp. had dropped to 44 C = 8 deg. C temperature difference. And although I'm not an expert, I'm guessing 8 deg difference between top-center of chassis and CPU is acceptable (I would be worried if the difference was like above maybe 15 C, in which case I would try repasting)...

Just a few follow-up questions, before I make my order (it's annoying I don't see I got any technical documentation, PDF, manuals, link to BIOS update website etc grrrr):

1. I think somewhere else, I read someone bought a 5 W PWM fan - the one you linked to draws 12 V. Can I freely choose either 5V or 12V ?
2. It seems there's also a PWM-version of that fan - but is there any reason to not use that, with variable speed (maybe you prefer constant speed)?
3. I just opened up the case, trying to deem if instead of a 10 mm fan, I think there's room for a 20 mm deep fan, like https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-A4x20-FLX-Premium-40x20mm/dp/B072JK9GX6/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1W0WAL61AVX8M&keywords=Noctua+NF-A4x20&qid=1687615383&sprefix=noctua+nf-a4x0,aps,159&sr=8-4 ? So, TopTon suggested a 40x40x10 fan, is it because it needs 1 cm airgap or something?

Thanks a lot @Ceros_X!

 

[Veeaye]

Ordered the i3 N305 (no mem or ssd) from the topton store on ali express and it arrived yesterday. Just under 2 weeks from order to arrival in California.

Added a 2TB Samsung 970 Evo + SSD and a 32 gig Samsung DDR5 module.

Unit took a min an a half on first boot (Assuming memory training) but after that it powers on to bios screen instantly. No problems with HDMI or anything else.

Installed proxmox 8 (Which just left beta yesterday. Ships with the 6.2 kernel that works better with these new cpus). Proxmox 8 iso didn't like my usb cd emulator, but I made a usb stick with rufus and installed without a fuss. Enabled IOMMU and was able to pass through two of the nics to an OPNSense VM without a fuss.

Didn't have time to do any testing beyond that but this weekend I'm going to migrate over my Omada controller CT, setup a container server and migrate over my network centric docker containers, and switch routing over to the OPNSense VM. I'll report back how everything goes.

Thanks for the work and exploration of everyone else in this thread.

Hello-

I am trying to do the same with an n305 from Topton. I have 32gb crucial and 2tb intel p670 ssd. (really would like to do raid 1 here but first I just want to get it to work).

Before release of 8.0 I could not get 7.4 to boot after install in order to update kernel to 6.2 (used Becks' suggestion to get VGA)... proxmox installed but would boot loop AFER install.

But now I've flashed 8.0-2 to USB as it comes with 6.2 I thought this would resolve the situation. However, when installing proxmox I get to about 50ish percent and it just reboots. I have tried several times now - zfs raid 0 with 1 ssd, zfs raid 1 with 2 ssd, GUI or console installer all with the same result. I even saw zfs as a common thread here, tried on ext4 - for some reason it seems to get further, around 70% or so and reboots as well.


Did you make any changes in bios that I should follow along? I have confirmed virtualization is enabled ... I have also tried it with the settings replicated from Becks Wrap up post.

I have gone through this many times and its moving VERY fast but the last thing I see during the ext4 install seems to be firmware... I checked through the proxmox 8.0-2 forum post and not seeing anyone with anything similar. Not sure where to go from here.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer!

 

[idle_user]

Hi everyone, new here and first post.

STH videos were recommended to me a week ago and I went down the rabbit hole.

Long story short, I ended up placing an order on i3-n305 variant from Topton. Bare metal as I have a spare (new) nvme sitting in the closet and a 16gb DDR5 SODIMM doesn't seem to expensive to pickup from Amazon.

Wanted to thank you all for this lengthy thread; I went read everything so far. And now I know to replace the thermal paste and keep an eye out for gaps and watch my temps on boot. Really hope I don't run into any serious issues.

Now for my question:

I planned to replace my router with this unit running proxmox and opsense. I did see a comment somewhere that it's best to use a switch and not a router. Am I wrong for wanting to attempt this?

 

[ohm]

Hello-

I am trying to do the same with an n305 from Topton. I have 32gb crucial and 2tb intel p670 ssd. (really would like to do raid 1 here but first I just want to get it to work).

Before release of 8.0 I could not get 7.4 to boot after install in order to update kernel to 6.2 (used Becks' suggestion to get VGA)... proxmox installed but would boot loop AFER install.

But now I've flashed 8.0-2 to USB as it comes with 6.2 I thought this would resolve the situation. However, when installing proxmox I get to about 50ish percent and it just reboots. I have tried several times now - zfs raid 0 with 1 ssd, zfs raid 1 with 2 ssd, GUI or console installer all with the same result. I even saw zfs as a common thread here, tried on ext4 - for some reason it seems to get further, around 70% or so and reboots as well.


Did you make any changes in bios that I should follow along? I have confirmed virtualization is enabled ... I have also tried it with the settings replicated from Becks Wrap up post.

I have gone through this many times and its moving VERY fast but the last thing I see during the ext4 install seems to be firmware... I checked through the proxmox 8.0-2 forum post and not seeing anyone with anything similar. Not sure where to go from here.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer!

I'd try to rule out hardware or bios instabilities first:
1. Clear the bios to factory defaults and try again.
2. Perform a few rounds of memtest to rule out ram defects.
3. Swap out the ssd if you have another spare lying around, or use the SSD test in the bios.

 

[ohm]

Now for my question:

I planned to replace my router with this unit running proxmox and opsense. I did see a comment somewhere that it's best to use a switch and not a router. Am I wrong for wanting to attempt this?

A switch and a router serves different functions, maybe explain further what you're trying to achieve?

 

[Zer0_C00L]

At this level once your processing the packets via Pfsence or similar, switching & routing are basically the same. Moving packets is moving packets.

 

[ohm]

At this level once your processing the packets via Pfsence or similar, switching & routing are basically the same. Moving packets is moving packets.

Are you suggesting he should be connecting a switch directly to his ONT without a router?

 

[idle_user]

A switch and a router serves different functions, maybe explain further what you're trying to achieve?

I was hoping to replace my Archer AX21 router with it. I have 1gbps fiber internet and ISP will be providing faster speeds in the future. Thought 2.5gb would be good, so I was planning to dedicate one of the ports to WAN and the rest as LAN.

And if there's more capabilities, probably migrate some containers I have running on pis onto it instead.

Ontop of all that, it seemed like a great network learning experience opportunity.

 

[Esports_are_for_losers]

Hello-

I am trying to do the same with an n305 from Topton. I have 32gb crucial and 2tb intel p670 ssd. (really would like to do raid 1 here but first I just want to get it to work).

Before release of 8.0 I could not get 7.4 to boot after install in order to update kernel to 6.2 (used Becks' suggestion to get VGA)... proxmox installed but would boot loop AFER install.

But now I've flashed 8.0-2 to USB as it comes with 6.2 I thought this would resolve the situation. However, when installing proxmox I get to about 50ish percent and it just reboots. I have tried several times now - zfs raid 0 with 1 ssd, zfs raid 1 with 2 ssd, GUI or console installer all with the same result. I even saw zfs as a common thread here, tried on ext4 - for some reason it seems to get further, around 70% or so and reboots as well.


Did you make any changes in bios that I should follow along? I have confirmed virtualization is enabled ... I have also tried it with the settings replicated from Becks Wrap up post.

I have gone through this many times and its moving VERY fast but the last thing I see during the ext4 install seems to be firmware... I checked through the proxmox 8.0-2 forum post and not seeing anyone with anything similar. Not sure where to go from here.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer!

At this point it sounds like you may to do basic troubleshooting. Try a different SSD, different memory module, re-seat both modules, etc. Also try loading stock ubuntu and see if installs and run.

I don't think I changed much from the stock bios settings, just verified virtualization settings are enabled.

 

[Zer0_C00L]

Are you suggesting he should be connecting a switch directly to his ONT without a router?

No, I'm saying once you are into some kind of PfSense/OepnSense box moving packets is moving packets, doesn't really matter if you are switching or routing, the bigger factor is the volume of packets you are moving not how you are moving them.

 

[ohm]

I was hoping to replace my Archer AX21 router with it. I have 1gbps fiber internet and ISP will be providing faster speeds in the future. Thought 2.5gb would be good, so I was planning to dedicate one of the ports to WAN and the rest as LAN.

And if there's more capabilities, probably migrate some containers I have running on pis onto it instead.

Ontop of all that, it seemed like a great network learning experience opportunity.

This is what I have running, and you can't do all these with a switch alone, but you can connect switches to the designated LAN ports if you need more physical ethernet ports.

Here's my configuration:
ETH0: WAN port passed through as PCI device to OPNsense VM and connected to ONT.
ETH1: LAN port passed through as PCI device to OPNsense VM and connected to an 8-port switch.
ETH2: LAN port passed through as PCI device to OPNsense VM and connected to another 8-port switch.
ETH3: Bridged management port for proxmox administration, and also bridged as LAN port under OPNsense along with ETH1 and ETH2.

Refer to How to set up a LAN Bridge — OPNsense documentation for LAN bridging on OPNsense.

All these together with a bunch of proxmox containers and VMs working happily and silently.

 

[ohm]

No, I'm saying once you are into some kind of PfSense/OepnSense box moving packets is moving packets, doesn't really matter if you are switching or routing, the bigger factor is the volume of packets you are moving not how you are moving them.

Yes, and regardless of packet volume, a router(layer 3) is needed to move packets in a different way than a switch(layer 2). Also a "router" in a home environment is typically associated with NAT and firewall functions that no switch will do. The question was if "it's best to use a switch and not a router", and that warranted a clearer explanation of the intent. I understand where you're coming from in the sense that routing and switching both "moves packets", but that didn't really answer the question posed does it?

 

[lucker]

TopTon suggested a 40x40x10 fan, is it because it needs 1 cm airgap or something?

I think the rest 10mm allows you to [optionally] attach a heatsink to an SSD, which I am going to do regardless of choosing a pair of slow and cool M.2 drives. Since the device is fanless the heat dissipation is one of the main factors for overall endurance. So, a 4pin chassis fan with the most possible CFM available is a wise choice as well.

Edit. Once my N305 unit came from CWWK, I will examine it and, probably attach a fan outside the box, since I cannot find a 10mm-thin fan with a decent airflow.

 

[miro123]

Hello,
I followed this thread for a while. I have one N5105 and 1240p boxes.
Can somebody shares power ussage of N100 after all this optimization? I preffer the numbers measured at 12Vdc
The reason that I asking this question is that I have not seen any improvements in term of power disipation on those Nxxx boxes.
It is strange to me that IDLE power of N100 and latest N5105 boxes are the same.

 

[flips33]

At this level once your processing the packets via Pfsence or similar, switching & routing are basically the same. Moving packets is moving packets.

No, I'm saying once you are into some kind of PfSense/OepnSense box moving packets is moving packets, doesn't really matter if you are switching or routing, the bigger factor is the volume of packets you are moving not how you are moving them.

They're not at all the same thing. Outside of enterprise networks* - a switch transports packets within the same network, and a router transports packets between different networks (ie. between your home network and the internet)

* in enterprise networks, a layer 3 switch can route packets between network segments without needing to pass through a router, though you would still typically use a router for an internet connection.

I was hoping to replace my Archer AX21 router with it. I have 1gbps fiber internet and ISP will be providing faster speeds in the future. Thought 2.5gb would be good, so I was planning to dedicate one of the ports to WAN and the rest as LAN.

And if there's more capabilities, probably migrate some containers I have running on pis onto it instead.

Ontop of all that, it seemed like a great network learning experience opportunity.

This should be possible. Check your current router's WAN configuration, if it's a simple WAN interface with DHCP than that will be easy to replicate in opnsense.

You have a couple of options, the most performant will be to pass a couple of the ethernet ports directly to the opnsense VM so they have direct access to them. Something like:

Port0 = Proxmox admin
Port1 = Proxmox other VMs
Port2 = opnsense LAN
Port3 = opnsense WAN

All of these except Port3 would connect to your network switch.