Chosing a RAID card for H11DSi build

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DavidWJohnston

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Yeah you can get these little 2.5" enclosures with the SFF-8639 U.2 connector that hold an NVMe M.2 SSD inside:


I've never used them, but I believe it should work. In the pic they show a Samsung 970 EVO.

Consumer drives are fast and cheaper, but their write endurance is not as good as enterprise.
 
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compgeek89

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Yeah you can get these little 2.5" enclosures with the SFF-8639 U.2 connector that hold an NVMe M.2 SSD inside:


I've never used them, but I believe it should work. In the pic they show a Samsung 970 EVO.

Consumer drives are fast and cheaper, but their write endurance is not as good as enterprise.
A fair point. And cost-wise, it might not even be worth it, I was just curious. Sounds like that cage with a couple NVMEs and maybe a small Optane hypervisor boot as you suggested is the way to go. Circling back to the RAID card, I am ready to say I definitely don't need NVME on that. Is the LSI 9362 likely the way to go? What would the IBM branded version be? Would definitely like to keep costs as low as I can while not cutting corners.
 
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DavidWJohnston

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For finding which specific model, oneplane suggested searching the forums, and there is lots of good info, such as this thread:


The 9361 and 9362 are on the non-flashable list, so I'm glad I checked! Forget about those!

The Dell WFN6R (9341-8i) appears to be flashable, and actually has a download link straight to the firmware from that post, maybe check out that one.

Here is an eBay listing for one of those: WFN6R Dell LSI MegaRaid SAS 9341-8I 12Gb/s Pci-E 3.0 x8 Raid Controller 830343003129 | eBay

Read the forum for more info - But before you flash, always export and save the firmware that comes on the card, so you can always go back to the out-of-box state.

So that Dell one might be a good pick, but I'd recommend doing a bit of reading before pulling the trigger.
 

compgeek89

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Researching the differences between the 9300 and 9341, am I correct in thinking the 9300 is "IT mode only" whereas the 9341 is a RAID capable card that can be flashed, basically, to make it like a 9300? I am starting at ground zero here!
 
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compgeek89

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That thread makes it seem like everything under the "SAS3008 Chipsets (Flashable to IT Mode)" heading is RAID by default but can be flashed to IT mode. There are separate sections that have IT only chipsets. How can you tell the difference? Just look each one up I guess? Why call them "flashable to IT" if they are only IT?
 

oneplane

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Jul 23, 2021
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I think there are some differences:

- IR mode flashable to IT
- IR mode-only (not flashable to IT)
- IT mode-only (not flashable to IR)
- IT mode and when flashed with IR firmware, it only shows JBOD options

To know which one is which, you really do need to get the specific part numbers, not just the 'series' the chip belongs to. A slightly easier method is getting the part numbers listed for known good models from IBM/HP/Dell/QCT/SM etc. so you don't have to look up the chips.

How to know which one is which: this is indeed the problem, mainly because most manufacturers don't want to tell you, or 'enable' you to do any of this. They would much rather sell you brand new cards every time you want to change how you use your hardware. For a home lab that would make no sense at all. Since a lot of tech is essentially all the same, just different software or 'almost' the same but some parts omitted to save cost, with a little bit of work it is possible to get the hardware to do what we want it to do instead of what the manufacturer had in mind.

One of the reasons the IR-to-IT mode exists at all is because of SAN technologies needing powerful HBAs, so for a chip manufacturer it's much easier to just create one chip that can do whatever you need, and configure it as needed per product. Because most of those cards are essentially just embedded computers with their own CPU cores, RAM, persistent storage etc... they can be programmed to do all sorts of things.

Story time:

When ZFS became a viable option for commodity hardware (a combination of CPU power, RAM availability and cheap disks), people needed ways to connect a bunch of disks to a host, and a lot of the cheap PCIe-to-SATA cards just plain suck at their job. So a lot of time and energy went into looking for other ways to attach more disks, including expanders, SAS-to-SATA cables so you could SAS cards, and a comparison of HBA chipsets to figure out what they actually contain and how they actually work.

Those SAS cards became a popular target because of their availability on the second hand market. In the old days (let's say around the Blade hype) pretty much every server had to have a RAID card (HBA with a RAID controller to be correct), with cache DRAM, and a battery back-up. Those tended to be limited in features and performance, and server upgrades were still a sensible thing to do during their lifespan, so replacing all the cards in the entire fleet was a reasonable thing to do. Result: second hand market gets periodically flooded with SAS HBAs with RAID controllers. Because those tended to be 'slow' for ye olde RAID5/RAID6 (or some other dataloss-inducing RAID variety) they weren't worth much for their RAIDing features, so if you didn't need RAID, you essentially got a cheap HBA out of it.

Of course, the RAID controller would still mess with the disks, MITM the communication and hide what is actually happening so you never really know if the data you wrote is actually stored on-disk instead of mid-flight somewhere in a cache. That "we pretend to be a disk" thing that RAID controllers do is mostly for Windows because it has historically been pretty bad at heavy I/O things like storage and networking, so to get it to perform consistently you had to put a lot of the heavy lifting somewhere where the NT kernel couldn't see it (so: in the controller itself). Since it needed to be offloaded anyway (to save CPU cycles), emulating a disk probably seemed perfectly sensible at the time. ZFS, and most modern volume management systems, really do need to actually know what is up with the disks, because it relies on knowing where in the pipeline the writes and reads are to keep replication and integrity in check.
 
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compgeek89

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Thanks for the data download. This has to be one of the most useful threads I have ever seen. You guys have been incredibly helpful. Unsurprisingly, I still have a couple questions!

1. Based on this thread https://forums.servethehome.com/ind...and-hba-complete-listing-plus-oem-models.599/ it looks like none of the 3008 cards have BBU/Cache -- wouldn't that be a major data integrity risk if I wanted to use a 9341 in RAID mode? And if so, it seems like I might as well just get a 9300 or OEM HBA and get something like a 9362 if I decide I need RAID. Reasonable, or off-base?

2. If I just get an LSI9300-8i or a Dell HBA (Not "H") card, are those all in IT mode and ready to go, or are they in IR mode by default? I am still a little confused since they are listed under "flashable to IT". Also, the thread above lists the Dell HBA350/355 as SAS3008 cards, but the flashing thread lists the H/BA330? Not sure why the discrepancy there.
 

oneplane

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Seems like maybe I could just get this and call it a day:

Yep, that would be an excellent choice. And because it is quite inexpensive, it won't hurt much if you do decide to get a different card for RAID, with BBU and Cache later on. But if you do really want a "do it both ways" card, the one DavidWJohnston suggested is also made with BBU and cache option. But if you just want to start building now, the HBA330 will get you started right away.
 
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compgeek89

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Yep, that would be an excellent choice. And because it is quite inexpensive, it won't hurt much if you do decide to get a different card for RAID, with BBU and Cache later on. But if you do really want a "do it both ways" card, the one DavidWJohnston suggested is also made with BBU and cache option. But if you just want to start building now, the HBA330 will get you started right away.
It seems like only the 936x cards have BBU/Cache, which are not flashable, while the 934x carda are flashable but have no bbu/cache. Am I incorrect on that?
 

DavidWJohnston

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That does appear to be true about the BBU/cache, I actually didn't realize that. Those are needed for write-back and read-ahead caching which improves performance. This comparison is useful: Qualification: LSI 9341-8i & 9361-8i RAID Controllers

At that price for the HBA, I agree with oneplane, just don't worry about it. You can get a still-cheap RAID card with the cache and BBU later.
 

compgeek89

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Mar 2, 2019
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That does appear to be true about the BBU/cache, I actually didn't realize that. Those are needed for write-back and read-ahead caching which improves performance. This comparison is useful: Qualification: LSI 9341-8i & 9361-8i RAID Controllers

At that price for the HBA, I agree with oneplane, just don't worry about it. You can get a still-cheap RAID card with the cache and BBU later.
That sounds good to me! I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I will go with that HBA for now and add RAID later as/if needed. Thank you both again so much. I have learned a ton, both about what I need and how to best put it to use. I really would have had zero idea what I was doing if it wasn't for your input!