Challenge: A SFF 6x GbE port machine for a firewall costing under US$300.

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Aluminum

Active Member
Sep 7, 2012
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Ok, I'll bite, incoming wall of text

Ok, fair enough. How about we open it up to mITX or MATX with a limit of US$300 to give a bit more breathing room.

To be clear, I am not saying the Cisco RV320 is the best there is at this price point. What I am saying is that it comes at a good price point that people could start looking at DIY builds and which still remains appealing to home users and small businesses alike.

What alternatives can we come up with...

RB
I can see two pretty simple pfSense builds, will assume no proxy or massive logs so no spinning platters. There are other choices that run off small flash drives, but IMO this is the best distro with lots of use and support even though they love to be 3+ years behind on the core OS unless its security related.
Since we are comparing this to the cisco I think this is fair, but if people really care or want to run a full blown linux install and do iptables manually (have fun writing all those rules) then add $50+ for a new SATA drive with enough space.

uATX:

Microcenter
$35: Celeron G1610 2.6 Ghz Dual Ivy Core (next step is $65 G2030 3 Ghz, no extra features). This cpu will obliterate any embedded crap, you can consider doing more with your router like running IDS modules etc.
$90: Intel DH77EB uATX w/ onboard 82579V (pci-e 1x16 3.0, 3x1 2.0) There are $50-60 boards, but then all the onboard NICs are realcrap chipset and they just aren't in the same league as this: bad slot configuations, crappy rear ports, etc etc. Meanwhile the intel board even supports VT-d of all things (although cheap cpu doesn't).

Amazon
$50 Rosewill uATX low profile case w/ 300W PSU. I'm not really sold on it but its functional enough without being too large. Nice cases and PSUs just aren't cheap, I buy modular high efficiency from brands with 5+ yr warranties but I don't expect everyone else to have my disease :)
$10: your choice 16GB usb stick, no point going smaller at today's prices
$18 2GB DDR3, you won't notice a difference in actual use but my inner computer nerd will not allow me to recommend that. (inner nerd would buy $56 2x4GB even though this cpu caps at 1333, or go nuts and build xeon w/ecc)
So yeah holy crap ram prices have gone up! I bought three 2x8GB 1600mhz C11 kits for $60ea last year to bump my 2009 i7 x58 system to 48. Can you say artificial market manipulation so they can milk it until DDR4 goes mainstream? I can.

Fleabay - Going to ballpark prices but there are tons to choose from, and I have found cheaper plenty of times so this is not a cop-out :)
$30: Dual Intel 82571 pci-e x4
$15 x 3: Single port Intel 82571 pci-e x1 (lots of dell versions out there)
*Note: you could get 4 duals instead and cut the x1 slot ends with an exacto knife (its easy and painless, press it in the side and cut upwards not down) but this controller is only pci-e 1.0a even though the slots are 2.0 which means 2.5Gbps so it wouldn't saturate both ports at once.


So about $270 gives you 6 real ports with the best unix drivers and plenty of horsepower for routing. Not sure what the VPN throughput would be, but at least a couple times what any atom does.
It has a decent upgrade path, e.g. later on you could put a 10Gb nic in the x16 slot and/or upgrade the cpu to something with AES-NI. If you haven't figured it out yet, I love VPN acceleration. (I hate waiting for pfsense to put it in stable...)


ITX:
[still looking, this is hard]
-Motherboard that doesn't suck or cost half a leg is hard. My current "favorite", DQ77KB, is not cheap nor available in the channel at the moment. (those jerks want out of the mobo market since BGA is going to get shoved down our throats as they can't eat their own dogfood, so probably won't be a haswell version coming) Edit: I actually hate this ****ing motherboard after dealing with some insane quirks it has.
-Half height case with a slot is hard too. If you go full height, its practically the same volume as that uATX case. CM120 elite is pretty nice for the ~$40 though, I have two of them.

Cheap/Notsuck/Available: pick 2, if you are lucky...
 
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zer0sum

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2013
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Closest mini-itx I can find with intel lan is the Jetway NF9G QM77, but I can't find it less that $199 :(

  • Socket G2 for Core i3/i5/i7 Mobile Processors
  • 1 x Intel 82579LM PHY Gigabit LAN (iAMT 8.0)
  • 1 x Intel 82574L PCI-E Gigabit LAN
  • Add Jetway expansion card for 3 x Intel 82541PI Gigabit Ethernet
  • Supports up to 16GB DDR3 SODIMM memory
  • 1x PCI-E x16 (3.0)
  • 1x Full-size Mini PCI-E (supports mSATA; selectable)
  • 1x Half-size Mini PCI-E
  • SATA 6.0Gb/s; SATA 3.0Gb/s w/ RAID support

You could also add more networking with intel PCI cards
 

Aluminum

Active Member
Sep 7, 2012
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Closest mini-itx I can find with intel lan is the Jetway NF9G QM77, but I can't find it less that $199 :(
DQ77KB with same onboard nics was $140 last year and supports a standard desktop socket $35 easy-to-find-cpu, but I can't recommend that for lots of reasons, the biggest one being you can't find it at any price now :(
(you can get on a waiting list from some gougers for $250+ though)

Even with that and a lucky ~$70 ebay find of a quad PT 82571 low profile card, I still don't think you could keep the whole system under 300. Low profile ITX cases that let you use the expansion slot are hard to come by. (I like these, fancy but pricey, slot only usable on models #4/5/6/7)
 
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mrkrad

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2012
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What about the xsm7224s switch? This can be used with a little hacking to work open-flow and do connection based policy routing at full 10gbe line speed (480gbps easily!) For the cost and some hard work, it may be a little expensive but forward future with advanced routing option enabled!

I have some HP 2920 48 port gigabit switches with OPENFLOW (1 openflow per vlan) they are POE+ with 4 10GBASE-T ports and 40gbps interswitch link so you can stack them together and create one big domain across 4 units.

Again with openflow you can do connection based routing decisions at full line rate which would easily fall into the realm of dual-wan!

Why think small? 48 gigabit and 4 10gbase-T or 24 10gbe would last you for the next century!
 

mrkrad

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2012
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well you could get a DD-WRT for $15 used and each port is active, just chain two or three up and you can setup two in bridging mode and 1 for nat and have a good solid system. $45. throw a $19 8 port gigabit switch in front of it to keep non-routable packets from hitting the switch and tearing it down.

3 cheapo dd-wrt would be a triumvirate. They have cloud AV and packet filtering options now too! opendns too!
 

Patrick

Administrator
Staff member
Dec 21, 2010
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I will bite on this one: Fortinet Fortiwifi 60C Wireless Firewall UTM Security NOW Lower Price | eBay

The Fortinet 60C has 2x WAN GbE, 5x GbE LAN, 1x DMZ port

The linked is a WiFi version which is the least expensive on ebay at the moment at $312. I bought my non-WiFi version for $295. May need some patience to get them but that is a very common price over months of watching them.

Now this does probably run afoul of the rule: "Not a unit build for this purpose that someone is selling off cheaply." but then again it is not a 1-off sale that happens infrequently. I do think those thin clients are the way to go on something like this except for the 6 GbE requirement.
 

RimBlock

Active Member
Sep 18, 2011
837
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Singapore
DQ77KB with same onboard nics was $140 last year and supports a standard desktop socket $35 easy-to-find-cpu, but I can't recommend that for lots of reasons, the biggest one being you can't find it at any price now :(
(you can get on a waiting list from some gougers for $250+ though)
Interesting. I can get along with a number of other Intel boards from the local distributor here. Will put something up in the for sale section for anyone interested. Shipping from me to the US / UK / EU needs to be factored in though.

RB
 

RimBlock

Active Member
Sep 18, 2011
837
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Singapore
Lots of great ideas and suggestions.

Would be interesting to do a comparison of the top three and may be a nice article for the main site if the budget is available. Not that I would want to add to Patricks already titanic workload :).

RB
 

Patrick

Administrator
Staff member
Dec 21, 2010
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Lots of great ideas and suggestions.

Would be interesting to do a comparison of the top three and may be a nice article for the main site if the budget is available. Not that I would want to add to Patricks already titanic workload :).

RB
You are killing me! Ha! I do need help. A bit expensive of a project for STH to undertake at this point unless we can get vendors to kick in the hardware. Just not sure when I would be able to write it.
 

zer0sum

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2013
849
474
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I will bite on this one: Fortinet Fortiwifi 60C Wireless Firewall UTM Security NOW Lower Price | eBay

The Fortinet 60C has 2x WAN GbE, 5x GbE LAN, 1x DMZ port

The linked is a WiFi version which is the least expensive on ebay at the moment at $312. I bought my non-WiFi version for $295. May need some patience to get them but that is a very common price over months of watching them.

Now this does probably run afoul of the rule: "Not a unit build for this purpose that someone is selling off cheaply." but then again it is not a 1-off sale that happens infrequently. I do think those thin clients are the way to go on something like this except for the 6 GbE requirement.
Nice link Patrick...I managed to snipe that for $242.50 :D
 

BThunderW

Active Member
Jul 8, 2013
242
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Canada, eh?
www.copyerror.com
I believe the requirements was for 6x Full Speed ports. 4 of the 8 ports on the x750e are over PCI bus which doesn't even come close to full speed. If that were the case I'd be the first to recommend this. The new XTM series watchguards are all PCIe but they're still a bit out of the price range.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330956402307

Make an offer of $300 :)


How about a watchguard x750e? Has 8 gbit ports and can run pfsense. $112 on ebay: Watchguard Firebox T1AE8 8 Port Firewall X750E Core | eBay
 
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PigLover

Moderator
Jan 26, 2011
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Maybe start with this? Pricing is not out yet so it could end up being too high, but dd a low-end CPU, Pico-PSU and an e-bay Intel 4-port GigE nic and you've got it nailed. Might not stay under the $300 budget, but you'd come closer to the stated requirements at a lower price point than the other alternatives so far!
 

Aluminum

Active Member
Sep 7, 2012
431
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Ok, this is the best stab I can do @ITX, grumpy style

$140: DQ77KB gives 1x82574L and 1x82579LM. I paid this much for it last year, so no friggin' clue why 1) its out of stock everywhere 2) its being gouged at the same time, but for the sake of this mental exercise I get to cheat here.

$35: Celeron G1610, microcenter FTW. 2.6Ghz of Ivy Bridge goodness stomps any embedded crap. No, it really does not use 55W, intel just wants to keep its Fully Operational monopoly market segmentation a dirty secret as much as possible.

$0: 19V Dell/HP super common power brick, anything 90W+ is more than plenty. Yes, free, they are not hard to find. Bug your corporate employed friends or dumpster dive or whatever. I got an entire file box full of these for $10 from a liquidation. (no, you can't have mine)

$15: 2GB DDR3 sodimm. It doesn't have to be fancy, it doesn't have to be 1600mhz, you don't need dual channel, it just has to boot. It will still beat the daylights out of any atom garbage with 2 gigs of el cheapo rammo. Friends don't let friends buy atoms. PS, True Nerds©®™ buy overkill xeons.

$42 shipped: 1U rackmount ITX case. Velcro the power brick where the powersupply would be and pretend its the same. (saves space and keeps it tidy. Loose cables sink ships or something)

$10-20: pci-e x4 riser so you can use full height quad NIC in that case. Amazon has a couple different kinds, not sure if the fixed 1U left hand are correct dimensions for this case or not. Not sure if the ribbon cable ones are actually in spec. Something in this price range should work though.

$10: your choice of 16GB thumbdrive, anything smaller is a waste.

$100 or less: Quad or 6x intel 82571 pci-e NIC (WARNING: VT quad aka 82575/6 will not boot with board. i350 causes some kind of memory problem. i340 probably fails too because intel bios writers have to consult with weasel lawyers before fixing bugs. Company run by engineers my foot, MBAs took over ages ago)

$0: pfSense ver 2.{whatever is current stable}*, because this is a router build and I can confirm it works with this hardware. (*its 2.0.3 of course, because 2.1 won't come out until 2014++ or I'm a monkey's uncle)


So around $300 depending on luck, phase of the moon and your astrological sign.
 

Jeggs101

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2010
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Looks great but I think that post was made before that board was released.