EU ASRock Rack B450D4U-V1LQ5 mATX AM4

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luckylinux

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Mar 18, 2012
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good question
My Question was more is it worth in Terms of extra Development, Time and Flexibility (you will only be able to access 1 out of these 4 PCs at any Time, so it's an additional Restriction).
Development/Time in Terms of:
- Extra ESP32/ESP32-S3 per 4-port VGA Switch
- Web Server App (would be nice if you could integrate a Device Selector in PiKVM itself, otherwise it will be a Hassle IMHO)

a usb-hub with 4 hdmi captures is feasable, but adding 4x benfei is not cheap, 9-12 eur each. it almost doubles my total cost (per 4 nodes).
I get that :( .

I had a lot of trouble to get my low-cost vga-hdmi adapter to work (also in the range of 2-3,- eur), very few low-resolutions worked
Sounds like I wasted 55 EUR or so thenon these 23 Adapters I bought just before you mentioned the benfei :(. My main Doubt was (if it behaves like the Supermicro X11SSL-F which is NOT granted) if the initial POST Screen would show up.If it behaves similarly, then BIOS& OS Screen should work (in Theory).


the benfei ( or hdmi capture) is not the fastest but it works.
Why do you need something crazy Fast ? Are you talking in Terms of Latency of FPS ?

It will NOT be made for a GUI with Mouse obviously. This is a Server Board where you would only need to access BIOS or Linux Shell Console I think ...

that's also possible of course.
i'm trying everything using material that is 'lying around'

edit:
1. it is possible to run the kvm thing 'self contained' on one of the proxmox host nodes in this way :) passing it again through a docker,podman would be a bit overkill.
Don't tell me :(.

For Frigate, the only valid "Solution" I found was to build Podman from Source, then install that directly on the Proxmox Host.
Ugly as Hell but it works:

No fiddling around with UIDs/GIDs Mappings & double Rootless and all of that Mess. The only potential "Solutions" otherwise would have been LXC Privileged + Podman Unprivileged or LXC Unprivileged + Podman Privileged (I never tried that) or Docker Privileged. I think I attempted the Former (LXC Privileged) and even that didn't work unfortunately (cannot remember the Issue - besides Security of course). LXC Unprivileged + Podman Privileged / Docker in Theory should work (that's what I believe the Proxmox Community Scripts do), but then again I didn't want yet another Variation & Layer in the "Stack", adding Complexity and Risks that something will eventually break.

The Issue of course in my Case was to access Hardware Devices Resources (Hailo 8L PCIe Accelerator).

2. the esp32-s3 is connected over the network ethernet or wifi to the kvm controller and usb is plugged to each node that needs to be controlled,
or
3. ethernet can be done using additional ethernet connector, adding a low cost ethernet is 3-4,- eur for each esp32 (POE increases the cost quite a bit again)
Are you talking e.g. the W5500 Adapter ? Or possibly the LAN8720 Adapter ?

EDIT 1: W5500 does NOT support IPv6 !
 
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luckylinux

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I've contacted ASRock and reported the USB issue thoroughly (as well as how many units of them we have plus how many units of their other boards.) They did mention it was built to order but so far they've been receptive enough to contact the BIOS engineer for this board. So best case scenario maybe we'll get a 2.13 version.
Again I'm not sure I understand the Issue since, besides the 2600X/2700X (which I do NOT plan to buy Again, due to these Issues), I didn't encounter this with the 3700X or 5700X.

But they would have to fix more than just the USB if they go through the Trouble of releasing a new BIOS Version. Unlock ALL Screens including Overclock Menu (to Undervolt, especially if we use a Low Profile Cooler), ECC Menu, PCIe Configuration Menu (e.g. for Speed / ASPM), etc.

@luckylinux I ended up giving up trying to fix the USB if you can't tell but I found a bunch of 9 pin to dual USB and I'm 3D printing a bracket to mount them in the rear as backup if ASRock doesn't respond.
Didn't they also include the USB3 (and AUDIO) to front-Panel PCB Adapters in the Box for like ~50% of the Boards ? I found out after I bought some USB3 Headers to Cable Adapters :rolleyes: ...


If I'm understanding you correctly, you want to mount a bunch of 120mm fans on the outside of the chassis, 3 of them per 3 servers?
Yes

Extremely Expensive. Checked eBay and TME.eu, approx 100 EUR each !

Arctic P12 - 56CFM, 1800 RPM, 2.2 mmH2O static pressure
This one - 300 CFM, 6200 RPM, 1.93 inH2O static pressure

But you might think "wait that one is only 1.93 static pressure and the Arctic is 2.2" no it's inH2O as in 49 mmH2O.
Of course inch vs mm :p. Heck I could also get the Arctic S12038 should I go down that Path (approx. 9 EUR for the 4000 rpm, approx. 12 EUR for the 8000 rpm).



Okay don't look up the price or weight though. Or power usage. Or decibels.
So ... the Most important Things in a Home :p.

The cool part is though if you did theoretically go with these, at 0% duty cycle which is 1800-2700 rpm, you still get 134CFM and 9.5 mmH2O.
And not being able to sleep at Night as well :p.

They do have a bunch of models, look around and see if you can find any for cheap and then look at the spec sheet, they almost always perform way better even at the same decibel range.
Which is kinda consistent with what I saw with the Arctic S8038: it's better to take the higher RPM Model and tune it down A LOT, than to take the lower RPM Model (and struggle plus NOT having enough Cooling Reserve Capacity).

Oh no why'd I do this now I'm tempted to buy 20 of the older models and use it to improve my HVAC, someone's selling them for $5 a piece.
For your HVAC :oops: ? Not "just" a Ventilation System ?
 
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dbram

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I've contacted ASRock and reported the USB issue thoroughly (as well as how many units of them we have plus how many units of their other boards.) They did mention it was built to order but so far they've been receptive enough to contact the BIOS engineer for this board. So best case scenario maybe we'll get a 2.13 version.
That would be very nice ! Thanks Virmach and Asrockrack already !
 

luckylinux

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Some Updates from my side.

I received my super cheap VGA to HDMI Adapters (2.7 USD / each) x 23 Pieces:

As said, based on a Review on Aliexpress, this seems to use the zy5621 Chip.

I also received a HDMI to USB Capture Card (5.5 USD / each) x 1 Piece - USB3 Version:

One Issue (and why I don't reccomend this exact HDMI to USB Capture Adapter) is that it has no Serial Number, so it's NOT possible to setup consistent & persistent UDEV renaming Rules for it I believe:
Code:
[124498.094187] usb 1-2: new high-speed USB device number 31 using xhci_hcd
[124498.223567] usb 1-2: New USB device found, idVendor=534d, idProduct=2109, bcdDevice=21.00
[124498.223588] usb 1-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=0
[124498.223597] usb 1-2: Product: USB Video
[124498.223604] usb 1-2: Manufacturer: MACROSILICON
[124498.225668] usb 1-2: Found UVC 1.00 device USB Video (534d:2109)
[124498.230940] hid-generic 0003:534D:2109.0003: hiddev0,hidraw0: USB HID v1.10 Device [MACROSILICON USB Video] on usb-0000:00:14.0-2/input4
Unless somebody knows how to rename such Devices of course. Otherwise I bought another HDMI to USB Capture Device, I'll give it a Try tomorrow to see how that one works :D.

The Good News is that the Combination I tested this evening seems to work satisfactorily at least for a Server Environment :D .

I might be missing the very early boot Stages, but I believe the combination of VGA to HDMI Adapter and the HDMI to USB Capture Card Starts Recording (or let's say becomes Alive) after Boot Code Pass through 99 then 02 then I believe b02 and b04 (and I think the exact Moment is at b02 or potentially b04).

The Boot Sequence is very fast, but if I keep pressing DEL (or possibly F2, didn't try that one though), I can successfully enter the BIOS and see everything fine there.

Most likely I messed up the Framerate in the below Commands, I think 60 fps is more than this Adapter supports, it seemed to work correctly though.

Test performed with the following Command at 1280x720:
Code:
root@HOST:/# ffplay -fflags nobuffer -input_format mjpeg -video_size 1280x720 -framerate 60 -color_range pc /dev/video3
ffplay version 6.1.1-3ubuntu5 Copyright (c) 2003-2023 the FFmpeg developers
  built with gcc 13 (Ubuntu 13.2.0-23ubuntu3)
  configuration: --prefix=/usr --extra-version=3ubuntu5 --toolchain=hardened --libdir=/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu --incdir=/usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu --arch=amd64 --enable-gpl --disable-stripping --disable-omx --enable-gnutls --enable-libaom --enable-libass --enable-libbs2b --enable-libcaca --enable-libcdio --enable-libcodec2 --enable-libdav1d --enable-libflite --enable-libfontconfig --enable-libfreetype --enable-libfribidi --enable-libglslang --enable-libgme --enable-libgsm --enable-libharfbuzz --enable-libmp3lame --enable-libmysofa --enable-libopenjpeg --enable-libopenmpt --enable-libopus --enable-librubberband --enable-libshine --enable-libsnappy --enable-libsoxr --enable-libspeex --enable-libtheora --enable-libtwolame --enable-libvidstab --enable-libvorbis --enable-libvpx --enable-libwebp --enable-libx265 --enable-libxml2 --enable-libxvid --enable-libzimg --enable-openal --enable-opencl --enable-opengl --disable-sndio --enable-libvpl --disable-libmfx --enable-libdc1394 --enable-libdrm --enable-libiec61883 --enable-chromaprint --enable-frei0r --enable-ladspa --enable-libbluray --enable-libjack --enable-libpulse --enable-librabbitmq --enable-librist --enable-libsrt --enable-libssh --enable-libsvtav1 --enable-libx264 --enable-libzmq --enable-libzvbi --enable-lv2 --enable-sdl2 --enable-libplacebo --enable-librav1e --enable-pocketsphinx --enable-librsvg --enable-libjxl --enable-shared
  libavutil      58. 29.100 / 58. 29.100
  libavcodec     60. 31.102 / 60. 31.102
  libavformat    60. 16.100 / 60. 16.100
  libavdevice    60.  3.100 / 60.  3.100
  libavfilter     9. 12.100 /  9. 12.100
  libswscale      7.  5.100 /  7.  5.100
  libswresample   4. 12.100 /  4. 12.100
  libpostproc    57.  3.100 / 57.  3.100
XDG_RUNTIME_DIR (/run/user/1000) is not owned by us (uid 0), but by uid 1000! (This could e.g. happen if you try to connect to a non-root PulseAudio as a root user, over the native protocol. Don't do that.)
Input #0, video4linux2,v4l2, from '/dev/video3':  0KB sq=    0B f=0/0
  Duration: N/A, start: 124677.334424, bitrate: N/A
  Stream #0:0: Video: mjpeg (Baseline), yuvj422p(pc, bt470bg/unknown/unknown), 1280x720, 60 fps, 60 tbr, 1000k tbn
[swscaler @ 0x76bb8c107500] deprecated pixel format used, make sure you did set range correctly
[swscaler @ 0x76bb8c107500] deprecated pixel format used, make sure you did set range correctly
I also tried at 1920x1080 60fps but it seems like the Adapter just upscaled the existing Picture on my Screen, without actually increasing the Resolution:
Code:
root@HOST:/ffplay -fflags nobuffer -input_format mjpeg -video_size 1920x1024 -framerate 60 -color_range pc /dev/video3
ffplay version 6.1.1-3ubuntu5 Copyright (c) 2003-2023 the FFmpeg developers
  built with gcc 13 (Ubuntu 13.2.0-23ubuntu3)
  configuration: --prefix=/usr --extra-version=3ubuntu5 --toolchain=hardened --libdir=/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu --incdir=/usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu --arch=amd64 --enable-gpl --disable-stripping --disable-omx --enable-gnutls --enable-libaom --enable-libass --enable-libbs2b --enable-libcaca --enable-libcdio --enable-libcodec2 --enable-libdav1d --enable-libflite --enable-libfontconfig --enable-libfreetype --enable-libfribidi --enable-libglslang --enable-libgme --enable-libgsm --enable-libharfbuzz --enable-libmp3lame --enable-libmysofa --enable-libopenjpeg --enable-libopenmpt --enable-libopus --enable-librubberband --enable-libshine --enable-libsnappy --enable-libsoxr --enable-libspeex --enable-libtheora --enable-libtwolame --enable-libvidstab --enable-libvorbis --enable-libvpx --enable-libwebp --enable-libx265 --enable-libxml2 --enable-libxvid --enable-libzimg --enable-openal --enable-opencl --enable-opengl --disable-sndio --enable-libvpl --disable-libmfx --enable-libdc1394 --enable-libdrm --enable-libiec61883 --enable-chromaprint --enable-frei0r --enable-ladspa --enable-libbluray --enable-libjack --enable-libpulse --enable-librabbitmq --enable-librist --enable-libsrt --enable-libssh --enable-libsvtav1 --enable-libx264 --enable-libzmq --enable-libzvbi --enable-lv2 --enable-sdl2 --enable-libplacebo --enable-librav1e --enable-pocketsphinx --enable-librsvg --enable-libjxl --enable-shared
  libavutil      58. 29.100 / 58. 29.100
  libavcodec     60. 31.102 / 60. 31.102
  libavformat    60. 16.100 / 60. 16.100
  libavdevice    60.  3.100 / 60.  3.100
  libavfilter     9. 12.100 /  9. 12.100
  libswscale      7.  5.100 /  7.  5.100
  libswresample   4. 12.100 /  4. 12.100
  libpostproc    57.  3.100 / 57.  3.100
XDG_RUNTIME_DIR (/run/user/1000) is not owned by us (uid 0), but by uid 1000! (This could e.g. happen if you try to connect to a non-root PulseAudio as a root user, over the native protocol. Don't do that.)
[video4linux2,v4l2 @ 0x772e88000c80] The V4L2 driver changed the video from 1920x1024 to 1920x1080
Input #0, video4linux2,v4l2, from '/dev/video3':B sq=    0B f=0/0
  Duration: N/A, start: 124874.788166, bitrate: N/A
  Stream #0:0: Video: mjpeg (Baseline), yuvj422p(pc, bt470bg/unknown/unknown), 1920x1080, 60 fps, 60 tbr, 1000k tbn
Reference for the ffplay Command above if interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux4noobs/comments/1fpvg65
I see that there is an Way to also record a Video in case somebody is interested, I could give it a try tomorrow:
 
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dbram

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Some Updates from my side.

I received my super cheap VGA to HDMI Adapters (2.7 USD / each) x 23 Pieces:

As said, based on a Review on Aliexpress, this seems to use the zy5621 Chip.

I also received a HDMI to USB Capture Card (5.5 USD / each) x 1 Piece - USB3 Version:


The Boot Sequence is very fast, but if I keep pressing DEL (or possibly F2, didn't try that one though), I can successfully enter the BIOS and see everything fine there.

Most likely I messed up the Framerate in the below Commands, I think 60 fps is more than this Adapter supports, it seemed to work correctly though.
That's very good news for your svga and hdmi capture adapters. I might have to retry my cheap adapter, granted I only tried it on 2 real monitors with SVGA inputs, not the capture card...
 

dbram

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in the mean time I've advanced on the esp32-s3 combined with a lxc container running nginx and ustreamer (low resource < 1% cpu). currently still going through lightweight mqtt messages for the keystrokes using a homeassistant embedded mosquito. meaning you could even automate the bios setup and upgrades :)

a very rough version just got me into the bios of a node installed in the rack :)
the hardest part: getting the correct keys for azerty be keyboard. quite some examples and libraries but difficult to find the right working combination. also avoiding a html5 browser to intercept F1, F11 keys didn't work on the first attempts.

yakvm.png

edit:
1. will probably be better to go for a docker compose for easy setup :cool:
2. ctrl-c would be nice too :)
3. mqtt still is good enough, but probably not embedded into home assistant but inside the compose setup or on the lxc container.
 
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luckylinux

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That's very good news for your svga and hdmi capture adapters. I might have to retry my cheap adapter, granted I only tried it on 2 real monitors with SVGA inputs, not the capture card...
I also tried it on my Monitor (a 24'' Dell Ultrasharp, probably Dell U2412M, but not 100% sure on the Part Number), and it worked pretty much the same. I could enter and see BIOS without Issues :) .

Note that I didn't do any Latency guesstimate etc. It was "responsive enough" for moving within BIOS Menu though.

EDIT 1: Apparently one of my Capture Devices is a FAKE USB3 Capture Device MS2109.

For the MS2130/MS2131, I can see some Repositories where MAYBE we can reflash (and patch/customize Firmware) and set the Serial Number that way:


There is also a Patch available, but not fully sure what it does

On the MS2109 I couldn't even backup the existing Firmware using ms-tools, even though the Device should be supported. Weird
Code:
root@HOST:/# ./cli --log-level=7 read FLASH --vid=345f --pid=2109 0 --filename=backup.bin
HAL(3): ROMOut:   00b5f8000000000000
HAL(3): ROMIn:    00b5f800d7109a0100
Failed to create HAL Unsupported device found
 
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luckylinux

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Mar 18, 2012
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in the mean time I've advanced on the esp32-s3 combined with a lxc container running nginx and ustreamer (low resource < 1% cpu). currently still going through lightweight mqtt messages for the keystrokes using a homeassistant embedded mosquito. meaning you could even automate the bios setup and upgrades :)
Not sure I'd want to expose that over MQTT personally :p. Of course an Advantage is that you don't need to wire 12 Individual (24 in my Case, when fully deployed) USB Wires to your KVM controller, you could do everything via WiFi (or Ethernet).

a very rough version just got me into the bios of a node installed in the rack :)
Nice :D. Good Job !

the hardest part: getting the correct keys for azerty be keyboard. quite some examples and libraries but difficult to find the right working combination. also avoiding a html5 browser to intercept F1, F11 keys didn't work on the first attempts.
What do you mean with also avoiding a html5 browser to intercept F1, F11 keys didn't work on the first attempts ? "Also avoiding" ?????

View attachment 43699

edit:
1. will probably be better to go for a docker compose for easy setup :cool:
Yeah, that was also my Opinion. Especially if you want to spin up 3 (each for a 4 Node Setup) or 24 (in my Case) containers, where only some minor Configuration Changes are required (USB Device Serial Number / Device basically)


2. ctrl-c would be nice too :)
Also CTRL+D, CTRL+Z, ...

Plus CTRL+ALT+F1, CTRL+ALT+F2, CTRL+ALT+F3, CTRL+ALT+F4, CTRL+ALT+F5, CTRL+ALT+F6, CTRL+ALT+F7, CTRL+ALT+F8

Not sure about the Implementation on the ESP32-S3 End. Do you have a GitHub Repository for it ?

On the Browser Side, if using Librewolf and/or similar Browsers, given the Issues I faced in Proxmox NoKVM, you will probably need to turn Off ResistFingerprinting in the Settings, otherwise multi-key Combinations will NOT work. If you want to use that Option for your daily browser, you'll need a Chroot/Container/Virtual Machine for the Browser you want to access PiKVM with, otherwise multi-Key Combinations will NOT work.

3. mqtt still is good enough, but probably not embedded into home assistant but inside the compose setup or on the lxc container.
You can just spin up another Mosquitto Container on the Control Node. Or one Mosquitto Container for each HDMI Capture Device :D.
 

VirMach

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So... one thing led to another. Providing an update for anyone interested for what's going on my end. I'm pursuing heatsinks and rails. No update from ASRock on BIOS. I did the math on the rails (doing it how I recommended to @luckylinux then realized I'm going to have to turn into a full-time metalworker so I created a CAD design and sent it off to China for bulk quotes.

If we do go that route with the rails, and anyone wants rails, I don't know how economical it will be to ship heavy rails across to Europe but I'd sell them at cost as I'm going to have to buy way more than we need to make it work. Same with heatsinks, I'm probably going to have to buy several hundred units more than I need, I'd still rather do that than buy $50 heatsinks and $40 rails.
 
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luckylinux

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So... one thing led to another. Providing an update for anyone interested for what's going on my end. I'm pursuing heatsinks and rails. No update from ASRock on BIOS. I did the math on the rails (doing it how I recommended to @luckylinux then realized I'm going to have to turn into a full-time metalworker so I created a CAD design and sent it off to China for bulk quotes.

If we do go that route with the rails, and anyone wants rails, I don't know how economical it will be to ship heavy rails across to Europe but I'd sell them at cost as I'm going to have to buy way more than we need to make it work. Same with heatsinks, I'm probably going to have to buy several hundred units more than I need, I'd still rather do that than buy $50 heatsinks and $40 rails.
Wouldn't it possibly be easier to do bulk orders for 2 Hubs, say Europe and US ?

Shipping from US for a ton of Steel is going to be VERY expensive.

Not sure how many People would be interested in Europe. I might be (I already ordered those Supermicro Ear Brackets though) :).
 

VirMach

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Not sure how many People would be interested in Europe. I might be (I already ordered those Supermicro Ear Brackets though) :).
Yeah I have multiple designs, one is static one size, shouldn't be hard to also make it work with those ears and "adjust" a little optionally. If it ends up being expensive, I'll cut it up and go fully adjustable/modular and I already have those ears so it'll be made for that. Third version is just an inner rail/"shelf" combo so it'll (a) work with the Supermicro inner slider rails (these are the cheap/available part for the longer chassis) or you can just use it with those ears specifically because those are for the sets I already have like hundreds of inner rails for anyway.

You can be our European hub for them if you want to go halfsies on the order and also have way too many rails, maybe start a server rail business. :p They should be dirt cheap, most of the price on what you can get for universal rails is markups, I just need to find a good supplier.

Basically here in the US, the rails that end up being $35-40 are actually closer to maybe $9 plus $3 shipping ($12 a set.) That's not even with extreme volumes, with extreme volumes they go down to like... $3-4 plus $1-2 shipping. And the versions I'm making should theoretically be cheaper (not cheaper than the extreme volume, hopefully cheaper than the $12 sets, so I'm hoping for around $8-9 delivered per set.) Who knows though maybe they'll come back and say $80 a set unless I order 6 tons of them.
 
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luckylinux

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Yeah I have multiple designs, one is static one size, shouldn't be hard to also make it work with those ears and "adjust" a little optionally. If it ends up being expensive, I'll cut it up and go fully adjustable/modular and I already have those ears so it'll be made for that. Third version is just an inner rail/"shelf" combo so it'll (a) work with the Supermicro inner slider rails (these are the cheap/available part for the longer chassis) or you can just use it with those ears specifically because those are for the sets I already have like hundreds of inner rails for anyway.

You can be our European hub for them if you want to go halfsies on the order and also have way too many rails, maybe start a server rail business. :p They should be dirt cheap, most of the price on what you can get for universal rails is markups, I just need to find a good supplier.
I'm not necessarily saying to be the "one". Especially because Shipping from Denmark is amongst the most expensive in the European Union.

But as a general rule, since we have the single Market (EU), it's much easier and we don't incur into import Fees and whatnot.

Furthermore from the US I think that the Shipping will end up being more Expensive than the Rails themselves.

Even with something like Jetcarrier (that is quite OK to Norway) the Shipping from Noway to Denmark ends up as expensive as the entire Trip from US to Norway by Sea.


Basically here in the US, the rails that end up being $35-40 are actually closer to maybe $9 plus $3 shipping ($12 a set.) That's not even with extreme volumes, with extreme volumes they go down to like... $3-4 plus $1-2 shipping. And the versions I'm making should theoretically be cheaper (not cheaper than the extreme volume, hopefully cheaper than the $12 sets, so I'm hoping for around $8-9 delivered per set.) Who knows though maybe they'll come back and say $80 a set unless I order 6 tons of them.
Do you mean $9 plus Shipping for ONE Rail or ONE PAIR (SET) or Rails ?
 

VirMach

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Do you mean $9 plus Shipping for ONE Rail or ONE PAIR (SET) or Rails ?
My target is max $9, total, per pair (set.) For 200 to 500 sets~

It's technically not the lowest they could be, but at the same time the number of units I'm saying might not be worth it to most these factories so sometimes they'll just quote really high as they don't want to deal with it.

1 ton of cold rolled steel is like $1200. Which is like 4.5 cubic feet, which is the material for about 1260 rails (or 630 sets.) They have to cut it, so let's say laser cut out 1260 templates. It probably takes a few minutes each? More realistically with the type of machines they have I'm guessing closer to 15 seconds probably. Some super rough math and with their profit margins for the manufacturing, it should be about $800 for the work, or $2000 total. Except the steel I said earlier is the US prices, China is closer to $600 so $1400 total, or $2.22 per set.

Shipping is probably going to be around the same price per set, so it'll be $4.44 and then whatever they add on that is their sales profit margin. If they just double it then it should be plausible for it to cost that much. Or maybe I could be dead wrong on all my math.

If we had the $50,000+ in machinery we could definitely get it done ourselves in half a week for $2 a set. I guess by the time everyone adds in their margins and expenses they end up being 20x the cost.
 
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luckylinux

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My target is max $9, total, per pair (set.) For 200 to 500 sets~
That seems like a Good Price :D

1 ton of cold rolled steel is like $1200. Which is like 4.5 cubic feet, which is the material for about 1260 rails (or 630 sets.) They have to cut it, so let's say laser cut out 1260 templates. It probably takes a few minutes each? More realistically with the type of machines they have I'm guessing closer to 15 seconds probably. Some super rough math and with their profit margins for the manufacturing, it should be about $800 for the work, or $2000 total. Except the steel I said earlier is the US prices, China is closer to $600 so $1400 total, or $2.22 per set.
Plus their own Margin of course.

I must admit I have no Idea how your design looks in terms of Bends, Thickness of the Material, number of Holes / Threaded Holes, etc.

I'm also no Mechanical Engineer, just know that nothing is free (and it's usually more expensive than we think).

If I think about the original Idea you illustrated to me, that will add around 1.5mm-2mm below each Chassis, thus the 1U Alignment will be completely messed up (if not immediately, after 3-4 Servers on top of each other for Sure).

I guess by the time everyone adds in their margins and expenses they end up being 20x the cost.
And Crazy Tariffs especially in the US right now o_O ...

EDIT 1: but your design is with "real" Rails (one "Inner" Steel Bar sliding alongside another "outer" Steel Bar) ? I guess to keep it cheap you'd do without Bearings, but then of course you rely on your Mechanical Tolerances and Friction Coefficient to be "good" (otherwise it would seize and you wouldn't be able to pull it out). Well nothing that a bit of WD40 or similar Lubricant can't fix I guess (although better that it does NOT drip inside the Chassis with the Motherboard !)
 

VirMach

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If I think about the original Idea you illustrated to me, that will add around 1.5mm-2mm below each Chassis, thus the 1U Alignment will be completely messed up (if not immediately, after 3-4 Servers on top of each other for Sure).
That doesn't happen because 1U chassis are 1.7 inches but "1U" is 1.75 inches (or something like that, let me look up more specifically...)

EDIT -- Yeah I don't know if they get that specific with measurements and there's also +/-% tolerances but pretty much I know for a fact that these work out fine in the real world, and if you're off by like a fraction of a millimeter or something like that, that would only end up causing a problem maybe after maybe like 20+ units since you have some play on where exactly you end up mounting the ears. You usually also don't end up just straight up filling an entire 42U/48U cabinet to the brim with just servers, I assume you might have at least on blank, one switch mounted the other direction, one patch panel, one "something" and that's where you can make up for any potential minor discrepancy.

EDIT 1: but your design is with "real" Rails (one "Inner" Steel Bar sliding alongside another "outer" Steel Bar) ? I guess to keep it cheap you'd do without Bearings, but then of course you rely on your Mechanical Tolerances and Friction Coefficient to be "good" (otherwise it would seize and you wouldn't be able to pull it out). Well nothing that a bit of WD40 or similar Lubricant can't fix I guess (although better that it does NOT drip inside the Chassis with the Motherboard !)
Yeah the inner rails for these specifically has a "fabric" on it that's meant to absorb/keep lubricant on it.
 
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luckylinux

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That doesn't happen because 1U chassis are 1.7 inches but "1U" is 1.75 inches (or something like that, let me look up more specifically...)

EDIT -- Yeah I don't know if they get that specific with measurements and there's also +/-% tolerances but pretty much I know for a fact that these work out fine in the real world, and if you're off by like a fraction of a millimeter or something like that, that would only end up causing a problem maybe after maybe like 20+ units since you have some play on where exactly you end up mounting the ears. You usually also don't end up just straight up filling an entire 42U/48U cabinet to the brim with just servers, I assume you might have at least on blank, one switch mounted the other direction, one patch panel, one "something" and that's where you can make up for any potential minor discrepancy.
Yeah ... Maybe I will also install something in the "Middle", that's right. If it's only after 20U then I think it's not such a big Deal. But if it's after 3U ... you know what I mean, right :p ?

Yeah the inner rails for these specifically has a "fabric" on it that's meant to absorb/keep lubricant on it.
So your Solution has also inner/outer Rails with Lubricant ?
 

luckylinux

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Doesn't matter anymore, all the quotes came back pretty much double where they needed to be with shipping, the custom design higher.
Damn it. So just mounting the Servers on top of each other and screw in via the Rack Ears basically ?
 

luckylinux

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@VirMach: a simple Solution I thought of, but can turn out ugly as ****, would be to get ideally these

Otherwise on the Cheap some say 75mm x 45mm Pieces of Wood and place these in the space between the 2 Choices for the Rack Ear Holes Pattern (M6 or some Imperial Screw Size) on the SAMSON SRK21 (or just after the Hole Pattern, in other Cases where you don't have such Obstacle):
1747673895178.png

Pre-drill 3 Holes per 1U as usual in the Wood and Optionally add a Wood Insert, so you can attach the L-profile "Rails bottom" using a Metal Threaded Screw (instead of a Wood self-threading Screw).

Otherwise take a cheap Rack Strip such as one of these:
1747674622910.png


e.g.

And mount that at 90° with a spacer (e.g. Wood) in the same Place.

Then put a L-Profile "Rails Bottom" like this (challenge is to get it thin enough, 3mm is standard, 2mm is a bit more difficult to source and get it shipped to Denmark for a reasonable Price):


1747674430922.png

But if you go full-custom and don't have the Rack already, maybe it's just easier to get the Rack Strip and the Steel Profiles, then Screw everything in some IKEA-like Furniture Cabinet or Cupboard. You might at that point not even care about the Rack Strip Holes Pattern for the Rack Ears mounting as you can oversize slightly anyway (e.g. do a "Shelf" every 50mm instead of 1U).
 

VirMach

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Apr 7, 2025
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Damn it. So just mounting the Servers on top of each other and screw in via the Rack Ears basically ?
I learned a little bit more about how they do everything specifically, and I have some ideas on how to modify my design to simplify it in a way where I can potentially bring the cost down for the custom design. It ends up leaning toward what we talked about, so this is where I'm at right now:

If it ends up being expensive, I'll cut it up and go fully adjustable/modular and I already have those ears so it'll be made for that
The shipping for the custom one ended up being much lower than the other quote I received. It did look "too high" but I don't really have a frame of reference so I just assumed the other would be similar. So that's what makes it potentially viable. I believe it's because the premade ones are also prepackaged individually for resale, and the custom ones aren't so maybe it saves a lot of volume (still heavy.)

I really do still want to avoid cutting it up too much, or trying to be "smart" and introducing some structural design flaw into it that makes them all useless.



@VirMach: a simple Solution I thought of, but can turn out ugly as ****, would be to get ideally these

Otherwise on the Cheap some say 75mm x 45mm Pieces of Wood and place these in the space between the 2 Choices for the Rack Ear Holes Pattern (M6 or some Imperial Screw Size) on the SAMSON SRK21 (or just after the Hole Pattern, in other Cases where you don't have such Obstacle):
View attachment 43730

Pre-drill 3 Holes per 1U as usual in the Wood and Optionally add a Wood Insert, so you can attach the L-profile "Rails bottom" using a Metal Threaded Screw (instead of a Wood self-threading Screw).

Otherwise take a cheap Rack Strip such as one of these:
View attachment 43732


e.g.

And mount that at 90° with a spacer (e.g. Wood) in the same Place.

Then put a L-Profile "Rails Bottom" like this (challenge is to get it thin enough, 3mm is standard, 2mm is a bit more difficult to source and get it shipped to Denmark for a reasonable Price):


View attachment 43731

But if you go full-custom and don't have the Rack already, maybe it's just easier to get the Rack Strip and the Steel Profiles, then Screw everything in some IKEA-like Furniture Cabinet or Cupboard. You might at that point not even care about the Rack Strip Holes Pattern for the Rack Ears mounting as you can oversize slightly anyway (e.g. do a "Shelf" every 50mm instead of 1U).
Okay that took a while but I finally pictured all this in my head. Just one thing for our case specifically though, these are ending up in a datacenter facility, so I think they would be pretty upset once they see me bringing in Ikea furniture and wood into their multi-million dollar facility. :p

And once I'm done explaining to them it's to save a few dollars per server, I don't think I'll ever be allowed back in.

I've done (or tried) what you said in the past, several years ago. I really hated it. A nightmare in many ways once you start using it but maybe I could have done it better (not with wood, etc, by the way, the posts you mentioned, 90 degree, etc.) This was for my personal cabinet at home. Then in the end you still have to basically buy a bunch of stuff so it doesn't really save money. It seems like every solution ends up adding up to the same thing.

By the way, I just checked the price of those steel slotted things I told you to purchase as part of the cheap solution, maybe it is in the US, but I did not realize how much more expensive they have gotten. Crazy. So I think at least for me, that solution no longer makes sense either.


EDIT -- I will say though perhaps one solution for you specifically, if you have all these in the same cabinet, is to essentially do what you said but skip any actual rails, just bring one set of posts closer, use your rack ears, mount it back and front, all 4 sides each server, they won't go anywhere. As in, attach the ears directly to the server at that point and every time you have to take a server out and have to undo 8 screws, just remember of all the money you saved. Plus you wanted to screw them in anyway, correct (so it doesn't slide around.) You're going to be making a lot of holes anyway, just make a couple in the chassis before you put everything in those CSE512's as needed.

EDIT2 -- Oh right you don't even need 4 of them just two, in the back only. It already has front ears.

EDIT3 -- You don't even need to make a hole I don't think, it lines up, but it doesn't "clasp" it, I just had a look. Depending on tolerances should work.
 
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