AMD Ryzen 9 16 Core Launch and New Threadripper Details

Discussion in 'STH Main Site Posts' started by Cliff Robinson, Nov 7, 2019.

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  2. TXAG26

    TXAG26 Member

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    #2
  3. ReturnedSword

    ReturnedSword Active Member

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    As far as I'm aware AMD isn't planning on releasing a 16 core TR 3000. With the rapid pace of AM4 platform growing cores up to 16 cores now, a 16 core TR would probably not make sense to start at anything less than 20 cores.
     
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  4. cactus

    cactus Moderator

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    There was the 1900x. (Not disagreeing with you, seems like a niche of a niche product.)
     
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  5. gigatexal

    gigatexal I'm here to learn

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    Holy smokes I want that 32 core part but 2k I’ll just have to live vicariously though my deeper pocketed STH friends.

    there was a 2990wx chip so I wonder if there will be an even higher clocked 3990x chip with a boost to say 5Ghz
     
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  6. Scott Laird

    Scott Laird Active Member

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    There have been rumors of WX workstation-class Threadripper 3000s that have 8 RAM channels, but they weren't announced this week. I'm not sure if they're being saved for later or if AMD canned them. They'd need yet another new socket (although like the previous TRs, it's presumably just another variant of the Epyc socket)
     
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  7. alex_stief

    alex_stief Active Member

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    AMD currently does not have the chips to get to 5GHz out of the box.
    TR CPUs with higher core counts up to 64 have already been leaked. What we don't know yet is if these will be exclusive to the 8-channel platform, or if AMD is daring enough to pair 64 cores with only 4 memory channels. Judging by the "unconventional" 2nd gen WX Threadripper CPUs, they just might be.
     
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  8. gigatexal

    gigatexal I'm here to learn

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    I hope not. The halo chip could very well be a sub 10k qty chip priced at say 4K a pop or some stupid number but they should do it right. If it needs 8 channel memory they should give it 8 channels.
    I could do so much with that 32 core part. Hot damn. So many PCI-e lanes.
     
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  9. ReturnedSword

    ReturnedSword Active Member

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    For sure! My best guess is at the time people were still getting used to octo-core consumer CPUs. Nowadays it doesn’t seem to make as much sense to have a 16-core workstation Zen 2 part when the prosumer part is pretty fast. I wouldn’t be surprised if a 16-core TR 3 was eventually released though if they happen to have a lot of dies with partially working chiplets. The main benefit of TR anyway is the increased downstream connectivity, so a lower core part that retains the same connectivity would be great for those who don’t need the raw CPU resources but need the connectivity.
     
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  10. Patriot

    Patriot Moderator

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    7nm euv is reported to have 200mhz higher clocks, but probably base not boost as it is a efficiency curve problem and shrinking things tends to reduce max clocks, one of the reasons Intel's 10nm process is essentially failed. (yes they will have 10nm products but they tend to be less cores and lower clocks and not better tdp)

    Expecting Ryzen 4000 announcement in Jan for mid year release...
     
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  11. AdrianB

    AdrianB Member

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    For those who need high connectivity, but do not need the high CPU performance of a Threadripper, AMD already has the right products, i.e. Epyc 7302P or the other cheaper Epyc models. While Epyc MBs with PCIe 4.0 are not easy to find yet, if PCIe 3.0 is OK then Supermicro H11SSL is widely available.


    These new Threadripper models are useful only for those who want high performance per dollar and high performance per computer case.

    A 3970X has at $2000 a performance not much less than an Epyc 7702P @ $4400 or a Xeon 8280 @ $10000, so its performance per dollar is excellent.

    As a rule, this is the advantage of the "workstation" CPUs, which offer a high performance per dollar, because they have high clock frequencies allowing them to match the performance of "server" CPUs with much more cores and with a much higher price.

    The "server" CPUs have the advantage of much better performance per watt and also of a longer lifetime when operated 24/7. So, for continuous operation at high load it makes sense to spend more for a "server" processor and then have less operating expenses, but for only sporadic high loads it is better to buy cheaper "workstation" CPUs, i.e. Threadripper or Xeon W.


    The problem with the new Threadripper models is that they are expensive enough so that for many applications it is cheaper to obtain the same performance with multiple Ryzen 9.


    The price for Epyc do not rise so much for high cores, so after you add the cost of the MB, of the PSU and of the case, the higher-core models have a better performance than the models with fewer cores. This means that one computer with a 64-core Epyc is cheaper than 2 computers with 32-core Epyc CPUs. So for Epyc it makes sense to buy the most expensive models required to reach your target of performance.

    On the other hand one computer with a 3970X is more expensive than 2 computers with 3950X (true even after taking into account the slightly higher all-core frequency of 3970X). Also, one computer with 3960X is more expensive than 2 computers with 3900X.

    Therefore, if one has applications that do not need superfast communication between the parallel processes, e.g. the very common task of program compilation, then it is better to buy several computers with Ryzen 9 3950X or 3900X, instead of buying computers with Threadripper.


    So at these prices, I expect that AMD will sell less Threadrippers than before, because in many cases there are better AMD products, e.g. 3950X for high performance per dollar and 7302P for high connectivity per dollar.
     
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  12. ElBerryKM13

    ElBerryKM13 Member

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    Yeah I don't know why they are asking for more money this time. Seems like AMD is following Intel's playbook of raising the prices just because they can get away with it. I was considering the 32 core TR but at $2k I might not and probably will just stick to a cheaper intel 18 core.
     
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  13. AdrianB

    AdrianB Member

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    After seeing the Threadripper prices I have also considered the 18-core Intel, but I have eventually decided that it is not the best solution, unless one buys it with the special purpose of developing AVX-512 optimized programs.

    My long experience with many hundreds of computers has taught me to never use a computer without ECC memory for anything important. Just these days I have caught one memory module where a few bits at certain addresses began to fail from time to time (after a few years of continuous service) on a file server where without ECC those errors would have lead to unnoticed file corruption.

    So with Intel if you want ECC the price jumps from $1000 to $1333, just a little less than the $1400 of 3960X.

    For optimized floating-point AVX-512 programs, a Xeon W-2295 will have approximately the same speed as a Threadripper 3960X, but for integer or AVX2 programs the Threadripper will be much faster.


    When compared with a Ryzen 3950X, for optimized floating-point AVX-512 programs a Xeon W-2295 will have a speed higher by 60%, but its price will be higher by 80%, so if you really need so much performance then it is better to buy 2 computers with 3950X.

    On the other hand, for non-AVX-512 programs, the much cheaper 3950X is slightly faster both in single-threaded and in multi-threaded applications. This happens despite having only 16 cores versus 18 because the all-core frequency of 3950X is higher and that at a much lower power consumption.

    The 18-core Intel will be faster only for application limited by the memory throughput, but because of the larger cache of 3950x, those applications will be fewer than before.

    In conclusion, except for niche applications a 16-core 3950X is better than an 18-core Intel, because it is faster for most programs, cheaper and consumes less power.

    The total PCIe throughput is actually the same for both Ryzen and Xeon W, except that in an X570 board the maximum PCIe throughput can be reached only if the first two x16 slots are populated with 2 GPUs or with 2 other peripherals that can use PCIe 4.0, while for Intel the maximum throughput can be reached when those 2 slots are populated with 2 GPUs with x16 PCI 3.0, which is a more frequent case.
     
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  14. TXAG26

    TXAG26 Member

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    For clarification, has there been any clear information that states whether the new Ryzen 3950X supports ECC ram? If so, does it support UDIMMs, RDIMMs, or both?
     
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  15. ElBerryKM13

    ElBerryKM13 Member

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    I think amd jumped the gun in raising prices so fast. They should've waited at least another Gen of really good chips to start raising prices. I see all companies are for profit and all that but amd always positioned themselves as the value proposition but just because you now beat intel you raised prices right away? wow.
     
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  16. AdrianB

    AdrianB Member

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    At least the following motherboards support ECC:
    ASUS Pro WS X570-ACE
    All ASRock motherboards

    There might also be other motherboards with ECC support.

    I am currently using a Ryzen 7 3700X on a Mini-ITX motherboard ASRock X570 Phantom Gaming-ITX/TB3 with 32 GB of ECC memory and it works OK.

    I intend to buy a 3950X and use it on an ASUS Pro WS X570-ACE, with ECC memory. I expect it to work OK.

    The problem with Ryzen 9 or cheaper is that unlike for Threadripper and Epyc, AMD does not advertise ECC support, which probably means that if you discover that you have bought a CPU where ECC happens to not work, you cannot request a replacement. However, I have not heard of such a case until now.

    The advantage in performance per dollar is so large for Ryzen 9 compared to all alternatives that the risk of buying an untested CPU is probably worthwhile.

    The ECC generating and verifying circuits are an an extremely small part of the memory controller, so even if they are not tested, it is very unlikely that a chip that passes the mandatory memory access tests during manufacturing will have some defect precisely in the ECC circuits, but nowhere else.
     
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  17. AdrianB

    AdrianB Member

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    I have forgotten to mention that it supports only UDIMM.

    Unfortunately only 16 GB UDIMM modules @ 2666 MHz are cheap and available everywhere, because that is what Intel supports.

    For Ryzen one would like 32 GB UDIMM modules @ 3200 MHz or at least @ 2933 MHz, but those seem very hard to find yet.

    However it is likely that the availability of faster ECC UDIMM will increase soon, as many Ryzen buyers search them now.
     
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  18. gigatexal

    gigatexal I'm here to learn

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    I don’t know about the whole longevity claim of a server chip over a HEDT part. Properly cooled a HEDT chip should last just as long as a server chip.
     
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  19. ReturnedSword

    ReturnedSword Active Member

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    The state of 32 GB ECC UDIMM is quite sad currently. Both Micron and Samsung have reported they will be releasing their 32 GB ECC UDIMM modules for nearly a year now, yet still having no availability. Micron is still a no-show, and the Samsung M391A4G43MB1-CTD running at 2666 MHz is still impossible to buy.

    Zen 2 is quite interesting since AMD decoupled the I/O from the cores. The IMC has been vastly improved compared to the prior monolithic CPUs. Zen/Zen+ was only capable of running 2 x DR modules @ 2400 MHz, and 4 x DR modules @ 1866 Mhz. Zen 2 should be able to support 4 x DR @ 3200 MHz, however none of the motherboard manuals I've seen have been updated to reflect this.

    Intel only very recently (in the last month AFAIK) provided the base BIOS microcode to vendors to support 128 GB in 4 x 32 GB configuration with the re-launch of the Xeon E-22xx series. One can only hope this means that the promised 32 GB ECC UDIMM modules will become available soon-ish.
     
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  20. Evan

    Evan Well-Known Member

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    4 x 32gb rdimm will for the near future always be so much cheaper that ecc udimm
    Rdimm support would be perfect,,, but yeah to going to happen.
     
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