10G Router CWWK/Topton/Qotom and further

[Tizian_M]

Hi all!

I'm quite new to networking and definitely need some help from you guys!
I live in Switzerland and my provider has 10GB XGS-PON (Wingo/Swisscom). At the moment I have their default router which has no features at all and receives rarely any updates - which I'm highly concerned about. At least it has 1x 10GB RJ45 and 4x 2.5GB RJ45 connections.

Additional Hardware:
Otherwise I do have an Unraid Server up and running with many dockers and Plex. At the moment my VPN runs through integrated Unraid Wireguard.
My only connections to the WWW are via Nginx and Cloudflare (Plex, Nextcloud, Paperless).

In my livingroom, I have an 8-Port 1GB Switch (Netgear) + a Swisscom branded 2.5GB WLAN-Repeater connected with 1GB LAN.
In my office, I have my Unraid Server and PC, connected with 2.5GB via QNAP 5-Port 2.5GB Switch.

Where is what located:
The fibre connection is located in the electric switch box in my entrance - very small space and closed approx 10cm depth x 30cm height x 30cm width.
From there I have Cat 5e cables which are leading to my rooms. My Unraid Server and PC (both would need 10GB) are in the same office room. For the rest of the rooms 2.5GB are plenty.

Target/Questions:
My target is to build my own router with one of the CWWK/Topton/Qotom mini PCs with 4x SFP+ Ports. Hence only a decent VPN (Wireguard?) and some IDS/IPS, Firewall and Geoblocking should run on the router I'm unsure how much power the unit needs really. I had a look at the newer Pentium 8505 units. Also I'm not sure which OS my needs fit the best.

To convert the XGS PON Fibre, I will need a certified conversion box to receive 10GB Copper output, Zyxel and Nokia has such (called ONT?)

- Which router/mini-pc would fit my needs best?
- Which 10GB tranceivers can you recommend for me? Also which NICs for my Unraid Server and PC?
- I would prefer to go with Copper all the way, hence my electrician told me that running fibre in the walls is quite expensive (splicing and sockets).

I'm very open for discussions and further questions! Would love to hear your inputs!

Best regards,
Tizian

 

[bugacha]

hey there, upcoming Init7 customer here.

First off all, dump Swisscom and never look back.

1. CWWK



2. You need to choose which fiber you want to use OS2 or OM4. At 10gbe speeds both cost (including transceivers) same moneys.
FS.com is the best source for everything, they code transceivers to network equipment of your liking but these days in retail space generic stuff works with pretty much any device: netgear, mikrotik, ubiquiti and so on
Can also buy from amazon.de - 10Gtek. They are good shop and make both fiber cables and transceivers - altho I think a bit more expensive.

NICs - use ebay. Mellanox Connect-X 4lx is super cheap in 10gbe or 25gbe dual-port versions.

Intel X710 or E810 are good alternatives too. If you run Opnsense/Pfsense - Intel drivers have better support for multiple packet streams and various offloads.

3. Your electrician is an idiot and you should fire him.
Fiber itself is very cheap vs. Cat5e/6 - you likely want to have Cat insulated so there is no interferences with electrical cables.

fs.com sells pre-terminated fiber with short-boot connectors that are fitting just fine in the wall tubing.

alternatively you can always find someone around with either fiber fusion splicer (aliexpress costs about $400-500) or fiber cleaver (in region of $50-$100). Termination is not as easy as RJ45 - no doubt, but its fun to learn. If you don't want to learn, Swisscom technicians have necessary equipment to terminate it. You can lay the fiber in walls yourself and ask them to come to terminate it.

sockets (google: FTTH Datendose) cost same moneys.

 

[RecursiveG]

You may want to check if the existing cable can actually negotiate 10G. Mine cannot and I run a fiber cable from the electric box to my server rack and place the ONT there.

 

[Tizian_M]

hey there, upcoming Init7 customer here.

First off all, dumb Swisscom and never look back.

1. CWWK
View attachment 41605


2. You need to choose which fiber you want to use OS2 or OM4. At 10gbe speeds both cost (including transceivers) same moneys.
FS.com is the best source for everything, they code transceivers to network equipment of your liking but these days in retail space generic stuff works with pretty much any device: netgear, mikrotik, ubiquiti and so on
Can also buy from amazon.de - 10Gtek. They are good shop and make both fiber cables and transceivers - altho I think a bit more expensive.

NICs - use ebay. Mellanox Connect-X 4lx is super cheap in 10gbe or 25gbe dual-port versions.

Intel X710 or E810 are good alternatives too. If you run Opnsense/Pfsense - Intel drivers have better support for multiple packet streams and various offloads.

3. Your electrician is an idiot and you should fire him.
Fiber itself is very cheap vs. Cat5e/6 - you likely want to have Cat insulated so there is no interferences with electrical cables.

fs.com sells pre-terminated fiber with short-boot connectors that are fitting just fine in the wall tubing.

alternatively you can always find someone around with either fiber fusion splicer (aliexpress costs about $400-500) or fiber cleaver (in region of $50-$100). Termination is not as easy as RJ45 - no doubt, but its fun to learn. If you don't want to learn, Swisscom technicians have necessary equipment to terminate it. You can lay the fiber in walls yourself and ask them to come to terminate it.

sockets (google: FTTH Datendose) cost same moneys.

Hi!

Thanks for the fast reply! Will need to stay with Wingo/Swisscom sadly. Only Provider with fibre. And I only pay 49.90 incl. fixed IPV4 adress.

1. Ok, but why the N355? It's only got 9 PCI Lanes which is definitely not plenty. Have a look the unit I found (also with fan)


2. From what I understood so far, OM4 would be the best way to go for home and my case? Don't really know the benefit of each other.
Thanks for FS.com! Never saw that page before, prices look very fair also. Regarding NICs, specially with Linux (Unraid) I heard also that Intel are the preferred choice, specially when you want to have some C-States and ASPM. The unit above (if configured with 4x10G SFP) comes even equipped with an X710, with 2x it's equipped with 82599ES.

3. Good to know, sadly I live somewhat on the countryside. Not many people even believe me, that I got 10GB at home... So maybe he's that slow and unexperienced with fibre work? From Cost, Temp, and Power regardings, only fibre makes sense to me.

 

[Tizian_M]

You may want to check if the existing cable can actually negotiate 10G. Mine cannot and I run a fiber cable from the electric box to my server rack and place the ONT there.

You mean the RJ45 or my fiber cable? Both can. Already tried it with a long cheap 5a Cable and my 10$ X540-T2 laying around... Just not for long because of the high temps of that little X540-T2.

 

[bugacha]

Only Provider with fibre.

This is not true. Google init7 and check their 25gbp/s offering.

rest is up for you to research, why is that and why is not that is too difficult to answer.

 

[Mike9474593]

Thanks for the fast reply! Will need to stay with Wingo/Swisscom sadly. Only Provider with fibre. And I only pay 49.90 incl. fixed IPV4 adress.

As long as Swisscom offers Fiber, you can order at almost any provider. Either they have their own hardware in the POP (eg init7, Solnet, Salt, Sunrise etc) or they offer the service over BBCS (e.g. iWay, Green).
What subscritpion do you have for 50 bucks included fixed IP?

Do you rent or own the place? (frei nach dem Motto von Elisabeth de Meuron: Syt dihr öpper oder nämet dihr Lohn? )
If you own the place I would opt for the following: extend the FO from your OTO in the electric switch box to somewhere more practical, eg office, living room. There are extensions for this (around Fr 200.- including installation). This way you can connect your Router with FO (there is even a XGS-PON SFP+ from Allnet allowed on the Swisscom network). Install fiber AND copper to every room from some central point. Fiber for the fast speed and copper for the ease of use and PoE (WiFi AccessPoint). FO is pretty cheap, probably the most expensive thing is splicing.
If you rent: I would go for a copper installation, because nobody is gonna pay you the expenses (I did rip out the full Cat6A installation in my old flat, because they did not want to pay for it after I left -> you pay me nothing, I give you nothing).

If you go for the Pentium 8505: please note, the PCIe Slot is only 4x. The unit with 2x SFP+ has a Intel 82599ES (Intel x520) inside, this is a very old PCIe 2.0 card. Bandwith of PCIe 2.0 x4 is not enough for bidirectional communication on full speed for both SFP+ ports simultaneously. I would go for the unit with the Intel x710 4x SFP+ card. Still, PCI 3.0 x4 is noth enough for all four SFP+, but at you can fully saturate 2 ports.
Edit: not sure about the PCIe Slot. It says PCIe 8x, but I'm not sure if it is electrical a x4 or a x8 port. Other units I know are just x4.


Please note: these Swisscom Wlan Box is not working very good whitout a Swisscom/Wingo CPE. Sell them on ricardo and get a propper AP.

Greetings from Thun

 

[Tizian_M]

As long as Swisscom offers Fiber, you can order at almost any provider. Either they have their own hardware in the POP (eg init7, Solnet, Salt, Sunrise etc) or they offer the service over BBCS (e.g. iWay, Green).
What subscritpion do you have for 50 bucks included fixed IP?

Do you rent or own the place? (frei nach dem Motto von Elisabeth de Meuron: Syt dihr öpper oder nämet dihr Lohn? )
If you own the place I would opt for the following: extend the FO from your OTO in the electric switch box to somewhere more practical, eg office, living room. There are extensions for this (around Fr 200.- including installation). This way you can connect your Router with FO (there is even a XGS-PON SFP+ from Allnet allowed on the Swisscom network). Install fiber AND copper to every room from some central point. Fiber for the fast speed and copper for the ease of use and PoE (WiFi AccessPoint). FO is pretty cheap, probably the most expensive thing is splicing.
If you rent: I would go for a copper installation, because nobody is gonna pay you the expenses (I did rip out the full Cat6A installation in my old flat, because they did not want to pay for it after I left -> you pay me nothing, I give you nothing).

If you go for the Pentium 8505: please note, the PCIe Slot is only 4x. The unit with 2x SFP+ has a Intel 82599ES (Intel x520) inside, this is a very old PCIe 2.0 card. Bandwith of PCIe 2.0 x4 is not enough for bidirectional communication on full speed for both SFP+ ports simultaneously. I would go for the unit with the Intel x710 4x SFP+ card. Still, PCI 3.0 x4 is noth enough for all four SFP+, but at you can fully saturate 2 ports.
Edit: not sure about the PCIe Slot. It says PCIe 8x, but I'm not sure if it is electrical a x4 or a x8 port. Other units I know are just x4.


Please note: these Swisscom Wlan Box is not working very good whitout a Swisscom/Wingo CPE. Sell them on ricardo and get a propper AP.

Greetings from Thun

Hi Mike! Greetings from Schwyz!

Did double check. Only Sunrise/Salt offers Fiber to my adress. All other offer only Copper with max 250/50. :-(
I have some old Blackfriday Lifetime Deal going with Wingo. In their Webconfig for your internet you can just tick "fixed IPV4" and that's it - no extra cost. Never had any issues with them, and the deal is certainly great for 49.90!

Sadly, i'm only renting the place. So nothing to fancy with expenses if possible. I already discussed the OTO movement to the office, but my wife sees thinks differently, so no option ;-).

I already saw that ONT, but with 250.- (Digitec) it's very expensive from what I can tell. The only place I would need fiber is my office, where the Server and PC stands. The rest with Copper 5e and 2.5GB is completely fine, also costwise.

Thank you for the input with PCIe Slot! Didn't saw that in the first place. I will only need 2-Ports but therefore go with the 4x SFP option only because of the way better X710.

Additional thoughts: There are some mini-pcs with the Atom C3758. Is there any benefit to lets an Pentium 8505? I only saw, that the C3758 is the same CPU that comes with some highend routers/switches. Specwise, I believe both would be completely fine for me? But the C3758 Options are only slightly cheaper.

Already thought, that the Swisscom Wlan Box don't work very well with others. I thought about getting some Ubiquitis? Possibly any other recommendation? Will need at least 2x RJ45 on it. One for Internet Input and one for sharing to other Ethernet devices around.

Thanks already for your time! You guys are the best

 

[Mike9474593]

Did double check. Only Sunrise/Salt offers Fiber to my adress. All other offer only Copper with max 250/50. :-(

Well, possible you got some early P2MP connection who is affected by WEKO block now. Should be better until the End of the year.

I have some old Blackfriday Lifetime Deal going with Wingo. In their Webconfig for your internet you can just tick "fixed IPV4" and that's it - no extra cost. Never had any issues with them, and the deal is certainly great for 49.90!

They offer fixed IP? I know they offer CG-NAT opt out over their portal, but also fixed IP? Good for you

Sadly, i'm only renting the place. So nothing to fancy with expenses if possible. I already discussed the OTO movement to the office, but my wife sees thinks differently, so no option ;-).

Well, then probably all copper...

Additional thoughts: There are some mini-pcs with the Atom C3758. Is there any benefit to lets an Pentium 8505? I only saw, that the C3758 is the same CPU that comes with some highend routers/switches. Specwise, I believe both would be completely fine for me? But the C3758 Options are only slightly cheaper.

Personally I don't like these Atoms. They are old, slow and run hot. But judge yourself:

Intel Atom C3758 vs Pentium Gold 8505 [cpubenchmark.net] by PassMark Software

The big advantage is the number of PCIe lanes, but that depends on the usecase...

Already thought, that the Swisscom Wlan Box don't work very well with others. I thought about getting some Ubiquitis? Possibly any other recommendation? Will need at least 2x RJ45 on it. One for Internet Input and one for sharing to other Ethernet devices around.

Yeah, these Swisscom WLAN Boxes are entirely controlled by the Swisscom Internet Box. They work without the Internet Box, but the LED stays red and I don't think you can change the WiFi Settings.
There are several possibilities: Either go for a switch and a AP. Or get something Ruckus H350/H550, HPE/Aruba InstantOn AP22D (CloudManaged) or HPE Aruba AP-505H/503H (local management). These are all WiFi6 AP. I think WiFi 6E will be a bit harder and way more expensive to get (e.B. Aruba AP-605H, but only Tri-Band/Dual-Radio and expensive as hell). And of course your Ubiquitis. Personally I use Aruba AP (local managed) at home, also knowing the InstantOn series. I have a Ruckus AP to play with, and gave away mi Unifi a few years ago because I do not like the separate controller.

 

[bugacha]

Hi!

Thanks for the fast reply! Will need to stay with Wingo/Swisscom sadly. Only Provider with fibre. And I only pay 49.90 incl. fixed IPV4 adress.

1. Ok, but why the N355? It's only got 9 PCI Lanes which is definitely not plenty. Have a look the unit I found (also with fan)
View attachment 41606

I never use topton again. This died on me 1 year after light usage. Likely crappy capacitors, which is unrepairable.



People here seems to praise CWWK

CWWK Firewall Mini PC 2x10G SFP+ 2xi226-V 2.5G Intel 3 N355/N150 Soft

CWWK is committed to developing a reliable, secure, and customizable firewall or VPN appliance for network professionals and enthusiasts.

cwwk.net

 

[bugacha]

N305 or N355 are great chips to run 10G router if you care about the speed, they are also very power-efficient hence usually all designs are fanless which is a plus.

Not sure why you care about PCIe lanes, its not like you will be able to expand much those boxes, there are no PCIe slots there.

 

[Tizian_M]

N305 or N355 are great chips to run 10G router if you care about the speed, they are also very power-efficient hence usually all designs are fanless which is a plus.

Not sure why you care about PCIe lanes, its not like you will be able to expand much those boxes, there are no PCIe slots there.

Sure, but I also read alot of problems quality wise with all these cheap mini pcs?
I believe most has to do with thermals, that's why i even prefer something with a fan.

Why are PCIe lanes important? Everything uses PCIe lanes. And from my perspective, 9 lanes are not enough depending on SFP config. NMVe drive each will take 4 lanes, if you get an 4x SFP card in there it will take another 8 lanes to fully saturate the ports. Thats why many of these cheap boxes only come with electrical x4 instead of full x8 PCI slot.

 

[bugacha]

Why are PCIe lanes important? Everything uses PCIe lanes. And from my perspective, 9 lanes are not enough depending on SFP config. NMVe drive each will take 4 lanes, if you get an 4x SFP card in there it will take another 8 lanes to fully saturate the ports. Thats why many of these cheap boxes only come with electrical x4 instead of full x8 PCI slot.

N305 has 9 PCIe lanes and it is enough to run 1 NVMe and all 2.5+10SFP+ ports at full speed.

Those units don't come with 4 x SFP+ cards, so don't worry.

2 SFP+ require only 4 lanes

 

[Tizian_M]

N305 has 9 PCIe lanes and it is enough to run 1 NVMe and all 2.5+10SFP+ ports at full speed.

Those units don't come with 4 x SFP+ cards, so don't worry.

2 SFP+ require only 4 lanes

That's true, but there are 4x SFP+ devices available. Which I prefer hence flexibility and mostly, they are equipped with Intel X710 DA4. Much more efficient and less power hungry.

 

[Mike9474593]

N305 has 9 PCIe lanes and it is enough to run 1 NVMe and all 2.5+10SFP+ ports at full speed.

Those units don't come with 4 x SFP+ cards, so don't worry.

2 SFP+ require only 4 lanes

Yeah, if the card is PCIe 3.0 or newer... 4 lanes on PCIe 2.0 are not enough for two 10G, saturated in full duplex.
PCIe 2.0 x4 is 2.0 GByte/s (unidirectional), two 10G ports give 2.5 GByte/s (unidirectional).
If course, sending and receiving on a router with 10G simultaneously is a bit a edge case, but still.

It's not only a matter of PCIe lanes but also on PCIe Generation.
And unhappily these Chinese sellers are using Intel 82599ES aka Intel x520. These are old PCIe 2.0 chips, but they are widely available because everyone is throwing them out (support is dropping on various systems).

 

[bugacha]

That's true, but there are 4x SFP+ devices available. Which I prefer hence flexibility and mostly,

there are no 4xsfp+ devices on N305 chip. They use different CPU so don't confuse this.

they are equipped with Intel X710 DA4. Much more efficient and less power hungry.

Do you have hard numbers to back this up ? Otherwise seems like a random claim that means nothing

 

[bugacha]

Yeah, if the card is PCIe 3.0 or newer... 4 lanes on PCIe 2.0 are not enough for two 10G, saturated in full duplex.
PCIe 2.0 x4 is 2.0 GByte/s (unidirectional), two 10G ports give 2.5 GByte/s (unidirectional).
If course, sending and receiving on a router with 10G simultaneously is a bit a edge case, but still.

It's not only a matter of PCIe lanes but also on PCIe Generation.
And unhappily these Chinese sellers are using Intel 82599ES aka Intel x520. These are old PCIe 2.0 chips, but they are widely available because everyone is throwing them out (support is dropping on various systems).

We are talking here about N305, its PCIe 3 Gen

 

[Tizian_M]

there are no 4xsfp+ devices on N305 chip. They use different CPU so don't confuse this.



Do you have hard numbers to back this up ? Otherwise seems like a random claim that means nothing

Yes, that's because there are no more lanes, if you want to go with 4x SFP you need at least the Atom C3758.

Easily available information online. For one doesnt the X520 support ASPM fully and also doesn't always allow further C States for the CPU. And the X710 is more efficient by itself, there are even graphs online.

 

[Mike9474593]

We are talking here about N305, its PCIe 3 Gen

Yeah, and the Intel 82599ES aka Intel x520 (which is included in most Chinese 10G units) is PCIe 2.0. Weakest link that counts...

 

[bugacha]

Yes, that's because there are no more lanes, if you want to go with 4x SFP you need at least the Atom C3758.

Easily available information online. For one doesnt the X520 support ASPM fully and also doesn't always allow further C States for the CPU. And the X710 is more efficient by itself, there are even graphs online.

do you have concrete W numbers please ?