unRaid 6

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bash

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Dec 14, 2015
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I would never use it or even consider it in a production environment. Once you start adding allot of drives the single parity system becomes a joke. Like everything it has it's use cases and drawbacks and they are hardly the first company to have terrible GPL practices.

They have come a long way in the last 12-24 months and they are getting a good amount of press from linus I expect adoption to pickup in 2016.
 

rubylaser

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Jan 4, 2013
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I'm afraid that with Linus' track record, when this current config blows up in his face, he will suddenly blame UnRAID instead of realizing that paying someone competent to setup his enterprise storage system and backup solution would have been money well spent.

His setups seem to always be two 18 core xeons, 256 GB of RAM, and then (24) 8TB disks in a hardware RAID5, or three hardware RAID5's striped together with Windows, or his latest favorite, a btrfs RAID5. Any sane person can spot the configuration issue with a solution like these. Awesome hardware, but no one to help him set it up properly.

Maybe Patrick should setup a YouTube channel to post some of the awesome deals on this site, highlight enterprise hardware, and get some of the many experts to chime in with some best practices. This seems to be a missing niche on YouTube.
 
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bash

Active Member
Dec 14, 2015
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scottsdale
I'm afraid that with Linus' track record, when this current config blows up in his face, he will suddenly blame UnRAID instead of realizing that paying someone competent to setup his enterprise storage system and backup solution would have been money well spent.

His setups seem to always be two 18 core xeons, 256 GB of RAM, and then (24) 8TB disks in a hardware RAID5, or three hardware RAID5's striped together with Windows, or his latest favorite, a btrfs RAID5. Any sane person can spot the configuration issue with a solution like these. Awesome hardware, but no one to help him set it up properly.

Maybe Patrick should setup a YouTube channel to post some of the awesome deals on this site, highlight enterprise hardware, and get some of the many experts to chime in with some best practices. This seems to be a missing niche on YouTube.

For maximum lol's watch how he almost managed to lose ALL data with his raid5 setup.

 

rubylaser

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Jan 4, 2013
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For maximum lol's watch how he almost managed to lose ALL data with his raid5 setup.

That is a hard one to watch, because anyone that's worked in IT has at some point had that horrible feeling that something just went terribly wrong. I was glad he got his data back, but their setup is still cludgy as hell and shouldn't be anywhere near a production environment.
 

Patrick

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Dec 21, 2010
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Maybe Patrick should setup a YouTube channel to post some of the awesome deals on this site, highlight enterprise hardware, and get some of the many experts to chime in with some best practices. This seems to be a missing niche on YouTube.
OK - maybe make a thread in the suggestions with some more detail?
 

rubylaser

Active Member
Jan 4, 2013
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OK - maybe make a thread in the suggestions with some more detail?
@Patrick, I was only kidding (unless you are up for it). I love the current format of this site and the intelligent people here. Maintaining a good YouTube channel is expensive from both a time and equipment perspective. I'd hate to detract from your original goal with this site. If you are still open to thinking about it, I'll make a new thread and pop some ideas in there (I'm sure others will have lots of ideas).
 

JimPhreak

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Oct 10, 2013
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UnRAID is not an enterprise production solution at this time, that much is clear. However we are on a Serve the HOME forum and while I know the majority of those on this site work in the IT field and therefore work on enterprise systems, that doesn't mean we all want or need to run enterprise level solutions at home. At it's present state, UnRAID is a very flexible home storage and VM solution and I think once dual parity is introduced in the near future that it will have even wider appeal.

As far as my uses for it, I can't think of any other solution out there right now that would be able to replace my UnRAID server with regard to bulk media storage, individual disk spin downs, the ease of adding more drives to the array, and of course Dockers. The combination of things I use it for make it the ideal solution for my home network.
 
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Chuckleb

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Mar 5, 2013
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I agree, there are uses for all types of products. I have a couple of friends who are not as savvy and would do better with this than the current CentOS mdadm model. They'd love to try virtualization but don't want to learn ESX or anything else. This would be ideal. Double parity would be even better.
 

rubylaser

Active Member
Jan 4, 2013
846
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Michigan, USA
UnRAID is not an enterprise production solution at this time, that much is clear. However we are on a Serve the HOME forum and while I know the majority of those on this site work in the IT field and therefore work on enterprise systems, that doesn't mean we all want or need to run enterprise level solutions at home. At it's present state, UnRAID is a very flexible home storage and VM solution and I think once dual parity is introduced in the near future that it will have even wider appeal.

As far as my uses for it, I can't think of any other solution out there right now that would be able to replace my UnRAID server with regard to bulk media storage, individual disk spin downs, the ease of adding more drives to the array, and of course Dockers. The combination of things I use it for make it the ideal solution for my home network.
I agree, and the best thing is that there are lots of nice options for people (UnRAID, FreeNAS, NAS4Free, OMV, FlexRAID, SnapRAID, etc.). I like to setup my own build and understand how each portion works, but I completely understand that it is not for everyone. UnRAID has really made some improvements over the past year and integrated a bunch of new things, and is a great solution for people that like the featureset.

My bulk storage server is Ubuntu 14.04.3 Server with SnapRAID, Mergerfs, Docker, Nut, and a bunch of scripts to automate everything for me. Everything is Open Source, supports up to 6 parity disks, individual disk spinup for a read, drives of various sizes, is actively developed, and completely free. This is all managed for me via SSH (other than the Docker instances that have web interfaces), but I love it.
 

canta

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Nov 26, 2014
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I am still hunting for the binary for v6 ... seems like they don't really care about GPL violations much.
... it is inside the installed directory, which requires agreeing to the EULA... and its not the entire source, even though the entire sources uses GPL libraries ... interesting.
On my understanding.. They don't care gpl even their code use some gpl libraries..

But they got fully cover by religious unraid user that already paid unraid license..

Since mostly home user. They do not know what is gpl or open source development.

Basically. I ignore unraid and prefer open source project. Such as snspraid, zol, and btrfs.

This is just me..
 

Patriot

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Apr 18, 2011
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On my understanding.. They don't care gpl even their code use some gpl libraries..

But they got fully cover by religious unraid user that already paid unraid license..

Since mostly home user. They do not know what is gpl or open source development.

Basically. I ignore unraid and prefer open source project. Such as snspraid, zol, and btrfs.

This is just me..
Unraid is an opensource project, they are just illegally not providing full source.
His code touches non-system libraries which makes his code GPL whether he wants to admit it or not.

You can charge for opensource projects, but you must provide compile-able binaries.
 

canta

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Nov 26, 2014
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Unraid is an opensource project, they are just illegally not providing full source.
His code touches non-system libraries which makes his code GPL whether he wants to admit it or not.

You can charge for opensource projects, but you must provide compile-able binaries.
This is the core of my reply..
Sorry for cryptic detail.

Unraid did release partial gpl source code.. That is useless..
No blob and Nada.

If you complained on unraid forum. You will get shot down by unraid users.. Ha-ha.
Honestly.. Many Users that do not know gpl license.

Same thing with embedded risc board from china. They try not to release gpl source code.
Minor of them release d due on pressure from users that know what is gpl license for.

I blacklist already allwinner soc board. Source code not full aka partial released.

Mediatek soc is a bit better. But still leave many holes unreleased gpl source code.

OK. I stop since getting oot.
 

JimPhreak

Active Member
Oct 10, 2013
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Just in case anyone is interested in trying UnRAID but the lack of dual parity support is holding you back, it's coming REAL soon. You can even see in this LinusTechTips video (5:24 in) that he's using the unreleased beta of UnRAID 6.2 that will feature dual parity.

 

Churchill

Admiral
Jan 6, 2016
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I've been using unraid since the late 4 and early 5 days. I've had storage arrays as big as 40TB and now I'm down to a decent 20TB. I've survived 2 simultaneous hard disk failures (thank god for backups), a busted parity drive, cache that has become corrupted, and each time I can say that most of my data has survived. I purchased 2 professional (26 disk) keys from Tom back in the day and this was the best money I ever spent as he has walked me through reviving my array when I thought all was lost. Yes, your purchase comes with support FOR LIFE. No other vendor does that as they all want a damn subscription every year where you pay them for nothing.

UnRAID 6 is awesome. It's on the Xpenology side of useability and feature set. I've got Docker running with multiple containers running Plex, OpenVPN, DuckDNS, UniFi (ubiquiti), and Deluge all running along taking 0 CPU resources on a 4 year old AMD platform. The best part is if I want a different container I click on the search store and the install button and the container is downloaded and installed.

UnRAID just works, it's the Toyota Camry of the Open source storage vendors. It can do MANY things, you can tweak it, install more parts to it, throw any old hard drive you want at it and the damn thing keeps trucking along. I've tried FreeNAS, Xpenology, OpenFiler, Linux with ZFS, and Linux as a storage service. UnRAID is by far the easiest to setup, supports nearly everything that's qualifies as an x86_64 CPU and buttload of controllers for storage. The UI has come a loonngggg way since the Bubba days (old UnRAID users will understand) of tweaking, and the UI is simplified down to make it so damn easy to use. I've talked 3 other people into trying UnRAID after they've messed around with other projects, all said it was vastly easier to use and that's the key.

Would I use it in my home? Absolutely 1000x yes. Would I use it as a backup at a SMB? Yes. Would I use it as a file server at a SMB? Yes. Would I use this in an enterprise solution? Never. I build enterprise solutions, UnRAID is not designed for those rigorous requirements.



Also, if you are on the fence holding out for Dual Parity drives, be real. You don't need it, you won't use it, dual parity is a waste of a disk for 99% of the users out there, and it's one of those "I MUST HAVE THIS!!11!!" feature that people clamor for and never use. I have been pushing for MORE disks instead (current limit is 26 disks) and would rather have a bigger focus on that vs. dual parity. That or to tighten up the cache disk headaches with BTRFS.
 
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JimPhreak

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Also, if you are on the fence holding out for Dual Parity drives, be real. You don't need it, you won't use it, dual parity is a waste of a disk for 99% of the users out there, and it's one of those "I MUST HAVE THIS!!11!!" feature that people clamor for and never use. I have been pushing for MORE disks instead (current limit is 26 disks) and would rather have a bigger focus on that vs. dual parity. That or to tighten up the cache disk headaches with BTRFS.
Absolutely agree on this front. I will not be using dual parity and would prefer data encryption before hand. I have no interest in giving up 8TB worth of space for a second parity disk I will never use since I have a proper backup solution. Obviously this mentality would never pass in an enterprise environment but that's clearly not what UnRAID is intended for.
 

Churchill

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Jan 6, 2016
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Absolutely agree on this front. I will not be using dual parity and would prefer data encryption before hand. I have no interest in giving up 8TB worth of space for a second parity disk I will never use since I have a proper backup solution. Obviously this mentality would never pass in an enterprise environment but that's clearly not what UnRAID is intended for.
In the current UnRAID setup you would need to lose 2 disks in order for your array to be lost.

Disk 1 Loss: normal RAID takes over, parity disk takes over.
Disk 2 Loss: parity is now broken. possible data loss.


I have never, not to say it's not possible, to see 3 drives break at once. I lost 2 at once so anything is possible albeit on the fringe of use cases.


There is no reason if you are using (and can afford) dual parity to NOT have a proper backup solution. UnRAID can be bought in 2 packs for a nice discount, email Tom and ask him for one, get 2 UnRAID setups and make one backup the other. I think there is a backup/replication docker container built for this purpose. I could be mistaken one exists, but you can configure replication between arrays easy enough with cron jobs or even windows file sync programs.
 
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JimPhreak

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Oct 10, 2013
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In the current UnRAID setup you would need to lose 3 disks in order for your array to be lost.

Disk 1 Loss: normal RAID takes over, parity still in place
Disk 2 Loss: parity disk takes the place of the 2nd lost disk
Disk 3 Loss: parity is now broken array becomes unusable.

I have never, not to say it's not possible, to see 3 drives break at once. I lost 2 at once so anything is possible albeit on the fringe of use cases.

4 disks breaking at once? You just lost a whole bank of drives and/or you have hardware problems deeper down the chain. Disks aren't your only concern at this point you'd need to check your cables, controller, disk chassis/bay, backplane, etc.

There is no reason if you are using (and can afford) dual parity to NOT have a proper backup solution. UnRAID can be bought in 2 packs for a nice discount, email Tom and ask him for one, get 2 UnRAID setups and make one backup the other. I think there is a backup/replication docker container built for this purpose. I could be mistaken one exists, but you can configure replication between arrays easy enough with cron jobs or even windows file sync programs.
Are you positive that is the case with regard to how UnRAID works? I was under the impression that with one disk loss, the parity disk "replaces" it in a sense in that it uses the parity info combined with what data is left on the remaining disks to determine what data is "missing" and while you still have all your data, your array is no longer protected during this time from another disk failure. Then once you lost a second disk the parity can no longer determine the missing data because it's now missing 2 disks and you'd therefore lose all the data on both those failed disks.

That's how it was explained to me when I started using UnRAID version 5 at least. Is there any documentation on what you're claiming because I'm pretty sure if I pull one of the drives out of my array, UnRAID will report that my array is no unprotected.
 
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Churchill

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Jan 6, 2016
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Are you positive that is the case with regard to how UnRAID works? I was under the impression that with one disk loss, the parity disk "replaces" it in a sense in that it uses the parity info combined with what data is left on the remaining disks to determine what data is "missing" and your array is no longer protected during this time. Then once you lost a second disk the parity can no longer determine the missing data because it's now missing 2 disks and you'd therefore lose all the data on both those missing disks.

That's how it was explained to me when I started using UnRAID version 5 at least. Is there any documentation on what you're claming?
FAQ - unRAID

from the FAQ:

If a drive fails, will I have full access to my unRAID array?[edit]
Yes, BUT ...

If a drive fails or is missing, you will still have full use of the entire array, including the contents of the failed or missing drive, just as with any similar RAID system. You can copy files from all drives including the missing one, AND you can even copy files TO the missing drive, although performance will be considerably slower. The unRAID system is designed to reconstruct all of your data and the file systems, IF the parity info is being fully maintained with all of your data drives.

HOWEVER, any time you are running without access to the failed or missing drive, any time you are running without all green status balls, you are UNPROTECTED against further drive failure. If a second drive fails, you will probably lose the contents of BOTH failed or missing drives! It isstrongly recommended to resolve the problem with the first drive as soon as possible.

As a cautionary tale, please see "Stopped. Invalid configuration. Too many wrong and/or missing disks!" .

>>>>>>
I lost 2 disks last week and all my data appeared to be there. I'm going to do a compare from my last backup. I'll report any discrepancies.

UPDATE 1: I've updated my initial post after confirming that a 2 disk failure data loss can occur.

I confirmed that I lost 3TB of data checking my file sync operations. Thank god for backups.
 
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JimPhreak

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FAQ - unRAID

from the FAQ:

If a drive fails, will I have full access to my unRAID array?[edit]
Yes, BUT ...

If a drive fails or is missing, you will still have full use of the entire array, including the contents of the failed or missing drive, just as with any similar RAID system. You can copy files from all drives including the missing one, AND you can even copy files TO the missing drive, although performance will be considerably slower. The unRAID system is designed to reconstruct all of your data and the file systems, IF the parity info is being fully maintained with all of your data drives.

HOWEVER, any time you are running without access to the failed or missing drive, any time you are running without all green status balls, you are UNPROTECTED against further drive failure. If a second drive fails, you will probably lose the contents of BOTH failed or missing drives! It isstrongly recommended to resolve the problem with the first drive as soon as possible.

As a cautionary tale, please see "Stopped. Invalid configuration. Too many wrong and/or missing disks!" .

>>>>>>
I lost 2 disks last week and all my data appeared to be there. I'm going to do a compare from my last backup. I'll report any discrepancies.
Yea that's what I thought. For this reason I keep a cold spare ready to go in case of a disk failure.