Ups with long backup time

Notice: Page may contain affiliate links for which we may earn a small commission through services like Amazon Affiliates or Skimlinks.

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
I'm looking for for ups that could be hooked up externally with ups battery such as panasonic's vrla battery.
i've been using modified ups with same setup but it doesnt have proper cooling and voltage regulation.
My wattage need is not that big, only around 1300-1500w. But where i live blackout happens quite often and sometimes it lasts more than 2 hours, so long backup time is more important, preferably around 3 hours i guess..

Edit almost forgot, it has to be smart UPS and has remote shutdown function
 
Last edited:

Lost-Benji

Member
Jan 21, 2013
424
23
18
The arse end of the planet
You have already answered your own question. APC SmartUPS XL model.

You need the XL units, external Anderson plug/socket and depending on size, 24V or 48V, both of which can be done with the APC EBM's or any external SLA / VRLA / LA (all the same chemistry), just calculate the A/H to suit a EBM number to program into the network controller and run a "Runtime" test afterwards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: denywinarto

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
Thanks, didnt know its possible on apc ups,
But that means we need to get 2 items, the ups, the ebm, and then also the battery, am i correct?

I found these but there is barely any reviews, but these models seem to allow hooking up the battery directly to the ups, any thoughts?
 

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
Thanks, i think i'm gonna try SURT6000XLI with one or 2 backup extension modules.
there's a seller offering a used unit cheap here..


Something's bothering me about it using multiple batteries though..
What if one of the batteries fail?
Would the entire unit stop functioning?
Or just the battery module which has the bad battery?
Wouldnt'it reduce the reliability though because i'm looking at like 48 batteries with 2 EBM
 

pricklypunter

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2015
1,708
515
113
Canada
If any of the batteries completely fail in any UPS, then all bets are off, no matter how many batteries you have, however, any good UPS should have been warning you about this for some period of time before it becomes critical :)
 

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
If any of the batteries completely fail in any UPS, then all bets are off, no matter how many batteries you have, however, any good UPS should have been warning you about this for some period of time before it becomes critical :)
I was told differently by the seller, he said it works based on 192 V system (16x 12v)

Since im using EBM with ups above, i got 3 modules of 16 batteries system, lets say its module A, B, C, where A is UPS' batteries and B &C are EBM's batteries.
Suppose the batteries in B is bad, the ups can still run with A and C batteries since they are on separate module. Is this true.?
 

pricklypunter

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2015
1,708
515
113
Canada
Batteries add capacity, basically equating to run time. If you lose a battery, you lose capacity, meaning shorter run time.

Will the UPS still continue working? Yes, it should, but it should also be telling you that a battery needs replaced long before things get critical.

Will it hold up your equipment in the event of a power outage with a bad battery pack and where there are others available? Yes it should, but for how long will depend on the capacity of the remaining good batteries, the power demand of the load plus inefficiencies.

One duff battery in a cage can hinder the remaining good ones ability to charge properly.
 

Lost-Benji

Member
Jan 21, 2013
424
23
18
The arse end of the planet
Thanks, i think i'm gonna try SURT6000XLI with one or 2 backup extension modules.
there's a seller offering a used unit cheap here..


Something's bothering me about it using multiple batteries though..
What if one of the batteries fail?
Would the entire unit stop functioning?
Or just the battery module which has the bad battery?
Wouldnt'it reduce the reliability though because i'm looking at like 48 batteries with 2 EBM
Slow down here matey, you are now going into the big league. 6KVA is no little toy and you are about to be playing with very lethal voltage levels. The 1400-2000VA models usually supported 24VDC battery systems. The 3KVA units were around the 48VDC and the biggest you can use on a plug-n-lead. Bigger run either 96VDC or the 192VDC (the use 96VDC packs in series internally) and are hard-wired. Under no circumstances should you consider running those sorts of DC voltages in something that is not fully contained and safe. You hook yourself on that, you aint going to come off well, besides death, arc-flash will burn badly.

I was told differently by the seller, he said it works based on 192 V system (16x 12v)

Since im using EBM with ups above, i got 3 modules of 16 batteries system, lets say its module A, B, C, where A is UPS' batteries and B &C are EBM's batteries.
Suppose the batteries in B is bad, the ups can still run with A and C batteries since they are on separate module. Is this true.?
The EBM will hold 4 battery cartridges, each is 96VDC and made from small 12V @ 5A/H cells. You need multiples of two in the EBM as when connected, they are in series. These carts are on eBay occasionally but pricks want top dollar. They are usually thrown out as replacement batteries are not cheap at the numbers required and as you are swapping after 2-3 years, ads up.

Ifyou want to use the 6KVA puppy, there is either a single or douple Anderson plugson rear, these need to see the 192VDC from memory (I would have to open up my 10KVA units to confirm as they may be 96VDC each).
Whatever you decide, you need to ensure that the batteries and their respective terminals and cabling are all safe, treat it with more care than AC mains voltage.
 

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
Slow down here matey, you are now going into the big league. 6KVA is no little toy and you are about to be playing with very lethal voltage levels. The 1400-2000VA models usually supported 24VDC battery systems. The 3KVA units were around the 48VDC and the biggest you can use on a plug-n-lead. Bigger run either 96VDC or the 192VDC (the use 96VDC packs in series internally) and are hard-wired. Under no circumstances should you consider running those sorts of DC voltages in something that is not fully contained and safe. You hook yourself on that, you aint going to come off well, besides death, arc-flash will burn badly.


The EBM will hold 4 battery cartridges, each is 96VDC and made from small 12V @ 5A/H cells. You need multiples of two in the EBM as when connected, they are in series. These carts are on eBay occasionally but pricks want top dollar. They are usually thrown out as replacement batteries are not cheap at the numbers required and as you are swapping after 2-3 years, ads up.

Ifyou want to use the 6KVA puppy, there is either a single or douple Anderson plugson rear, these need to see the 192VDC from memory (I would have to open up my 10KVA units to confirm as they may be 96VDC each).
Whatever you decide, you need to ensure that the batteries and their respective terminals and cabling are all safe, treat it with more care than AC mains voltage.
Thanks for the warning,
I am planning to install this on a HP rack ,
the seller instructed me to buy these type of battery, 16 of them to be exact.
They already done the hardwiring on the AWG , the one that the manual says must be done by qualified electrician
So all i need to do is intalll these 16 batteries on the UPS' battery pack, plug it and turn it on,
Any part of my procedure might be unsafe? Or is it simply don't get the red and black wire mixed up or something like that?

12v4.5ah.JPG
 

fake-name

Active Member
Feb 28, 2017
180
144
43
73
You might be better off just buying a inverter/charger and a bunch of batteries.

If you haven't seen them before, Inverter/Chargers are basically the core of a UPS intended for the end-user to supply the batteries. They're generally intended for uses like Winnebagos and Boats, where you sometimes have shore power.

They're nice because they're usually intended for 100% duty cycle, e.g. they expect to be able to run off the batteries continuously for an indefinite period of time (in some cases, the batteries can also be charged by an engine).

I have one I use instead of a UPS.

They're also nice because at least the one I have can be switched between sealed batteries, and flooded batteries. If you want super long run times, you're basically stuck with flooded batteries because no one really makes huge sealed batteries.


------

WRT to your EBMs, I'd suggest you charge all the batteries individually before putting the whole stack together. If you have one string of batteries that are fully charged, and one string that's not, you could get pretty large currents when you connect them together. With 16 batteries, you have either one string of 16 (for 192V) or two strings of 8 (for 96V).

If it's one string, you'd probably be fine as I'd guess the UPS has to be able to handle external batteries with unknown charge states, but if it's 2 then I'd try to balance the two strings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: denywinarto

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
You might be better off just buying a inverter/charger and a bunch of batteries.

If you haven't seen them before, Inverter/Chargers are basically the core of a UPS intended for the end-user to supply the batteries. They're generally intended for uses like Winnebagos and Boats, where you sometimes have shore power.

They're nice because they're usually intended for 100% duty cycle, e.g. they expect to be able to run off the batteries continuously for an indefinite period of time (in some cases, the batteries can also be charged by an engine).

I have one I use instead of a UPS.

They're also nice because at least the one I have can be switched between sealed batteries, and flooded batteries. If you want super long run times, you're basically stuck with flooded batteries because no one really makes huge sealed batteries.


------

WRT to your EBMs, I'd suggest you charge all the batteries individually before putting the whole stack together. If you have one string of batteries that are fully charged, and one string that's not, you could get pretty large currents when you connect them together. With 16 batteries, you have either one string of 16 (for 192V) or two strings of 8 (for 96V).

If it's one string, you'd probably be fine as I'd guess the UPS has to be able to handle external batteries with unknown charge states, but if it's 2 then I'd try to balance the two strings.
But inverters is "interrupted" not uninterupted like UPS right?
Then wouldn't a genset be better then? an automated one perhaps, because both of them are not uninterupted anyways

Thanks for the info about EBM, i think it's 2 strings based on the internal UPS pics the seller sent me.
You mean i should put 1 string first, wait til it's charged and then put the second string?
Seller said that wont work because the UPS requires 192V battery in order to turn it on. Guess i'll try charging them separately before installing
 
Last edited:

fake-name

Active Member
Feb 28, 2017
180
144
43
73
But inverters is "interrupted" not uninterupted like UPS right?
I don't know what you're trying to say, but the one I have switches from inverter to pass through on-the-fly. Every UPS has an inverter, that's how they work.

There are online/double-conversion UPSes, but you likely don't have one of those (they're pretty specialized and ususual, and cost a LOT more. They *always* run the inverter, and convert the input AC to DC when mains is available. If you have extremely noisy mains, they can really help).

You mean i should put 1 string first, wait til it's charged and then put the second string?
No, I meant use a dedicated battery charger to charge *all* the batteries individually before doing anything with the UPS.

Seller said that wont work because the UPS requires 192V battery in order to turn it on.
If you can confirm the system is indeed 192V, then you have only one string of batteries and you should be fine to just hook them up, assuming you bought the batteries at the same time and ideally they're from the same manufacturer lot.

It's impossible for you to have two strings with 192V, because 192 / 12 = 16 (the number of batteries). With a string of 8 batteries, you only get 96V (12 * 8).

For multiple strings, the ideal way to do things is to connect the grounds together, and then connect the V+ together with a large, high power resistor or similar to let them equalize. Once both strings are at the same voltage, you can just connect them directly without issue.

Realistically, if they're reasonably close in voltage, you can probably just YOLO them together without major problems.
 
  • Like
Reactions: denywinarto

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
Well just finished the UPS installation, thankfully everything seems to went well, placed it at the bottom of the rack..
the indicator doesnt show any error, although i havent tested it with load..
Will install the AP9617 nmc tmw and run the self test again

You might be better off just buying a inverter/charger and a bunch of batteries.

If you haven't seen them before, Inverter/Chargers are basically the core of a UPS intended for the end-user to supply the batteries. They're generally intended for uses like Winnebagos and Boats, where you sometimes have shore power.

They're nice because they're usually intended for 100% duty cycle, e.g. they expect to be able to run off the batteries continuously for an indefinite period of time (in some cases, the batteries can also be charged by an engine).

I have one I use instead of a UPS.

They're also nice because at least the one I have can be switched between sealed batteries, and flooded batteries. If you want super long run times, you're basically stuck with flooded batteries because no one really makes huge sealed batteries.
I thought Inverters cutoff the power first before switching to backup, unlike UPS.
At least thats how it works from several inverters i've seen..
I dont think that's ideal for my case because i have a 2 dozens of drives in my 4u60 rack

Since i bought the UPS already, what if i use UPS + inverter rather than UPS +EBM (s)
would that work then? wondering if i can hook the inverter to the UPS directly
 
Last edited:

fake-name

Active Member
Feb 28, 2017
180
144
43
73
I thought Inverters cutoff the power first before switching to backup, unlike UPS.
Your UPS has an inverter in it. That's literally how every UPS works[1].

I think you're thinking of commodity DC-AC inverters, like the kind intended to let you plug in 120/240V devices in your car or similar. These are a type of inverter, but the term is much more general.

A UPS is literally a battery charger, a inverter, and logic/switches to swap around between the input mains and the inverter output[2]. When you buy an inverter/charger, you're basically buying a UPS without the integrated batteries. It does the input switching just like a UPS without the power cutoff, etc...

[1] - This isn't true for DC-output UPSes.
[2] - This is something of a simplification, and is ignoring "online", resonant, and a bunch of other esoteric UPS variantes which are more complicated. It's generally true for most "standby" type UPSes (which are by far the most common).
 

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
Well from what i read here


Apparently i'm gonna need a pure sinewave inverters otherwise the UPS won't accept the power,
there are alot of inverters in my local shop but none from the big names, e.g APC, cyberpower
Cyberpower do have some power inverters, but it maxed out at 1320 watt, not sure if thats enough for me.
 

Blinky 42

Active Member
Aug 6, 2015
615
232
43
48
PA, USA
Since you already have the UPS and EBM's then just roll with that. Since it is a 6kVA model, be sure you have it on a 30A 240V circuit with a dedicated breaker, even if you don't have a significant power draw day to day when things are fine, when the UPS recharges it will draw additional current to do the recharging, and if you have it on a normal 15A circuit it will trip the breaker when power comes back and starts to recharge the batteries, defeating the whole purpose :)

If you cable up your own battery strings, make sure the fuses are in each battery pack to prevent problems. The original wiring harness for those has the short spade connector jumpers to go between the adjacent batteries and a long one from the back of the pack to the anderson conenctor in the front + one of the jumpers has a built-in fuse. w/o that fuse, if a battery fails you can have it take out the entire system and at a higher risk of starting a fire.

The 6kVA UPS you have is a double-conversion model, so AC goes in, it goes to DC, charges batteries if needed, then the DC gets converted back to AC and output. If you look in your settings on the UPS, you can tune it to actually output 208 or 240V regardless of the input voltage. The high internal DC voltage is used to help minimize conversion losses. Since internally it is ~190V DC all the time it just pulls power from the batteries if the input AC goes away and you don't have the power interruption that you see with cheaper UPS units that will kick in the inverter and disconnect the load from the AC line when there is a power problem.

For inverter solutions like people mention above I would suggest starting looking at the solar / alternative energy sites because a big solar power install is very similar in topology to a large capacity UPS, with the added complexity of a maximum power point tracking module that pulls the power out of the solar panels in a way that gets the max effeciency out of the system, and work with the loads and available battery capacity to minimize losses. Find the company names on those sites and dig deeper and you will find their other products that are not as solar focused to get an idea of what is out there commercially.
 
  • Like
Reactions: denywinarto

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
Since you already have the UPS and EBM's then just roll with that. Since it is a 6kVA model, be sure you have it on a 30A 240V circuit with a dedicated breaker, even if you don't have a significant power draw day to day when things are fine, when the UPS recharges it will draw additional current to do the recharging, and if you have it on a normal 15A circuit it will trip the breaker when power comes back and starts to recharge the batteries, defeating the whole purpose :)

If you cable up your own battery strings, make sure the fuses are in each battery pack to prevent problems. The original wiring harness for those has the short spade connector jumpers to go between the adjacent batteries and a long one from the back of the pack to the anderson conenctor in the front + one of the jumpers has a built-in fuse. w/o that fuse, if a battery fails you can have it take out the entire system and at a higher risk of starting a fire.

The 6kVA UPS you have is a double-conversion model, so AC goes in, it goes to DC, charges batteries if needed, then the DC gets converted back to AC and output. If you look in your settings on the UPS, you can tune it to actually output 208 or 240V regardless of the input voltage. The high internal DC voltage is used to help minimize conversion losses. Since internally it is ~190V DC all the time it just pulls power from the batteries if the input AC goes away and you don't have the power interruption that you see with cheaper UPS units that will kick in the inverter and disconnect the load from the AC line when there is a power problem.

For inverter solutions like people mention above I would suggest starting looking at the solar / alternative energy sites because a big solar power install is very similar in topology to a large capacity UPS, with the added complexity of a maximum power point tracking module that pulls the power out of the solar panels in a way that gets the max effeciency out of the system, and work with the loads and available battery capacity to minimize losses. Find the company names on those sites and dig deeper and you will find their other products that are not as solar focused to get an idea of what is out there commercially.
Thanks, i happen to have a dedicated breaker for my server fortunately.

I forgot to mention, i havent bought the EBM yet,
kinda hesitated after installing that many batteries.. a bit worried a large number of batteries like that might decrease reliability.

Solar solution is a too expensive for me because in my country the state electricity company also charges for solar panel usage (yes strange i know)

So i'm thinking of pairing my ups with either genset or inverter, although i'm leaning towards inverter with minimum number of batteries.
 

Blinky 42

Active Member
Aug 6, 2015
615
232
43
48
PA, USA
Depending on your average load that needs to be supported during a long power outage, at some point it is more cost effective to have a generator vs a huge pile of batteries that need to get replaced every few years.

I mention the solar side more as a way to find vendors making the charge controller and inverters since that is where the marketing is these days, but you don't need to have any solar in the equation - you can design a system that will spin up generators for you etc or just be a DIY ups.
Some vendors with a quick search
 
Last edited:

denywinarto

Active Member
Aug 11, 2016
238
29
28
40
Generators are a little too overkill for my needs,
I just need it to survive roughly 1000 watt load for 3 hours, (most blackouts dont last more than 3 hrs)
Plus they're huge and i'd rather use rack-based,
but i can see at that ratio the options are limited for rack based

There's a seller offering this in my country, any thoughts?
I happen to have 2 100ah 12v battery from my previous UPS, so i dont have to buy battery for this.
other higher wattage options are unbranded and chinese-made, and i'm worried about the quality

Here's an example of bad quality chinese inverter, it's in the reviews

Although compared to EBM, i will have to provide a sliding shelf for this
 
Last edited: