Hyper-V Server Build Questions

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Shim

New Member
Sep 4, 2018
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Hi All

I am in the process of building all new computers and server(s) for my wife's business.

Up until now, we have been running on SBS2008 on a Core2 Duo E8500 with a whopping 8GB of RAM.

Don't laugh. It has served us well until now, however, it is time to retire it.

There is a strong chance that I will be using SBS2011 as I like the idea of an all in one box, but more on that in another thread to be created later.

The purpose of this thread is that I am now considering building a second server to host some virtual machines and don't know what the hardware requirements would be, so I come here for advice.

My thinking is that I would like to have a couple of pools of around 4 machines. One for people who work remotely so they RDP into a virtual machine instead of a physical one. These machines would be basic workstations with Office and not much else. The second pool, also around 4 machines, would be for similar uses to the first pool only with the addition of QuickBooks. These may be accessed either locally, or remotely. The thought there is that I have 4 QB licenses and would never need 4 people using it simultaneously, however there are more than 4 who use it.

Given that I have yet to play with Hyper-V, I have a couple questions.

1. Is my thinking on uses and pools on the right track?
2. If it is, what do I need in terms of hardware. What makes a difference in performance for the above scenario? Core count, socket count, RAM, ?

If I end up with a second server, it will have SSDs at least for the OS and VMs

We have been given a grant and some of the grant money will be used to pay for this second server. I want to figure out what to get for hardware soon as there is a deadline for claims. I can, and will, set up a test environment to play and learn Hyper-V, but there is no deadline on that. Bit backwards, yes.

One thing that is absolute is that I will be building the servers, not buying Brand X OEM.

Thanks
 

EngChiSTH

Active Member
Jun 27, 2018
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It is hard to give you any advice as you have not posted any budget. You also did not said anything about cost of downtime for that business, potential liability your wife or you are taking on , etc.

then, any specific requirements driving you to SBS2011? Wasn't this replaced by 'Essentials' line (Windows 2012 Essentials, 2012 R2, then Essentials role within 2016 server) long time ago ?

start with budget , consider costs of downtime (and liabilities involved) , think of how you will do DR for this, buy as much as your budget would allow.

personally, I would not use the worlds DYU and business (something that has funding source and is hopefully making money) in the same sentence . Hardware is cheap, software may be expensive (depending on licensing), downtime is expensive..
 

vl1969

Active Member
Feb 5, 2014
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I would say, first of all forget sbs2011.
It is not supported anymore.
If you want hyper-v. Winaserver 2012 and up is the only supported OS.
I would not use anything less than 2016 64bit.
But your budget may dictate differently.

2. For any mission critical setup a clustered setup is a must. Especially hyper v. So budget for at least 3 nodes pluss a dedicated nas or san. There is a way to run off node internal storage but it still requires additional software and licenses. Something like StarWind or something.

Your main costs will be client licencing as you will need a licence for every vm you run. Unless you go with datacenter licence for your cluster nodes.

3. Forget about DIY. In business world it is the biggest mistake you will ever make. Vendors like hp or dell bring a comprehensive warranty and service to the table that is very difficult to surpass.

4 do your research on virtualization carefully. Especially licence requirements. Calculate your client licence needs and budget for future expansion.

Compare and contrast hyper v with VMWare. Cost to value etc...

Vmware may have better setup options as it has a very good built-in storage sharing I.e. vSan. But licencing cost may be too much for you.
 

NashBrydges

Member
Apr 30, 2015
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Let me offer a bit of a reality check.

Does your wife's business require 24/7 uptime? My guess is it does not. In fact, the business could probably stand to suffer at least a few hours of downtime, if not even a couple of days before there was irreversible damage to business operations. This is obviously a guess based on what most small businesses can handle but you haven't provided details about the nature of the business so the final word on how much downtime the business can stand is up to you.

Assuming the business can handle SOME downtime, you do NOT need to go down the road of a multi node setup. You can avoid those costs and added complexity by instead of building some whitebox server, stick to a major brand supplier and make sure you have next business day warranty support. Oh and if someone suggests you need a SAN, run like the wind! There is no way a business with a few PCs and one or two servers needs a SAN. Choose local storage instead and you'll have a much better performing setup. With this, you can instead make sure you have rock-solid reliable and tested backups that you know you can recover to in the event of a disaster. I can't emphasize the need for testing your backups enough. I've picked up a number of clients because their previous ITSP told them their backups were secure but never truly made sure they could be used for recovery (ie: disaster recovery testing was never implemented).

If you want to stick with Hyper-V hypervisor, you do not need to purchase Windows Server license. Windows Hyper-V Server is completely free to use. I'm not talking about Windows Server 2016 with Hyper-V role, I'm talking about the hypervisor alone. The naming convention is sometimes confusing but Windows Hyper-V Server is free to use. That will setup your hypervisor and you can figure out what OS you need for your virtual machines to run regardless of the hypervisor.

If you properly size your server, you can run a very efficient and secure Hyper-V server as a single server, with solid tested backups, good next day or next business day warranty.

Btw, I agree that SBS2011 shouldn't be on your list. File servers can easily be setup using Linux (free licensing), and if you're only running a few computers, you don't even need a domain controller.
 

Shim

New Member
Sep 4, 2018
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Thanks for the replies so far.

The business is a product based business. We make a laundry detergent. We do all the design, marketing, etc. It is made by a third party, and we warehouse it. We also own the business, so liability is not a concern. Only caveat to that is I share a bed with the person at the top of the food chain!

There is going to be around 15 workstations, plus the possibility of the VMs mentioned in my original thread. Most of the workstations are basic workstations with the Office suite. A few of them will also run the Adobe Creative Suite.

Another thing I did not mention originally is that if my pool thinking is correct, there would probably only be 4 VMs running at any given time, maybe 6.

Here is a reply I gave to someone in another forum where I posted the exact same question:

I spoke to a couple people, one a supplier, the other a college and got a couple opinions. One figured that I don't need a high core/CPU count and could get away with 32G of RAM. The other said that if all the workstations at the office are a minimum of i5s and a minimum of 16GB of RAM, all on at least 860 EVO SSDs, you want the remote user VM experience to be at that same level. I would have to agree with the second and that is how my thinking is going so far.

My original plan was to use SBS2011 on a new server using a Xeon E5-1620v4 (4 core, 3.5GHz) a SuperMicro X10SRH-CLN4 (both of which I have at the moment) and hosting the QuickBooks file on it.

Now that I am thinking about a second server, my thought is to use the same board, but use a E5-1650v4 (6 core, 3.6 GHz) and build two machines. One running SBS with 32GB of RAM, the other the VMs with 64-128GB of RAM.

With two servers, I can take down the second server every now and then and test bare metal backups as the machine running the VMs will not be mission critical. This is one of many advantages of having two similar machines.

As far as QuickBooks, we are using 2017. I currently have the file hosted on my SBS2008 machine. If I go down the two server road, I will put it wherever it makes sense to from a storage performance and ease of backup perspective. I know that they claim SBS2011 is not supported, however I seem to remember there being workarounds out there to make it work.

I also don't think I am going to do W10, I probably will stick to W7 as so far I hate everything about W10. I say this having played with it for less than an hour total so far.

I probably will play with it one way or another before rolling out our new systems and give it a fighting chance.

I am an Action Pack subscriber so I have licenses for all this stuff to play with.

It will be nice rolling out an entirely new IT infrastructure to our staff. Right from the keyboards all the way to the server. I even got us a Cisco 350X switch with 4 10G ports on it. Two workstations will have 10G to the servers!


We can deal with downtime, and have actually when someone in our origination recently got us a ransomware virus. That took a week to get back up and running, and over a year to finally get it all cleaned up. I found out the hard way then that my most recent usable backup was 3 months old.

I am not dead set on SBS2011, however I still like the idea of Exchange, SharePoint, etc all in one box. Plus, it is easy as hell to manage. Essentials did replace it, however it does not include things like Exchange. It seems the newer the server OS' etc, the harder the push is to move things to cloud based. Don't think I want to go there.

I will be using a DC so I can control things via GP, like we do now, plus all the other advantages of having a domain.

I will not be doing any cluster or SAN. To me, it makes a lot more sense to do as Nash said and have good backups, done often, and proven viable. I spoke to this in my reply (above) to someone on another forum. If I do the VM thing, that machine will not be mission critical. If it is offline, remote workers can remote into physical workstation, and if I do QuickBooks on VMs, as long as my QB file is intact and backed up, I can install QB on another machine and be up and running within the hour.

As far as budget is concerned, I am not starting with a budget. I am trying to figure out if my thinking is on the right path with the remote workers and possibly QuickBooks, and then build a machine to do it. I don't think I need a multi socket platform with 28 cores per socket. Even if that were in a budget, I am not going to put in a machine with 2 processors at over $10k each for a couple remote workers.

I am not going to buy brand name. We have been running since day one on hardware I have built. Our current SBS2008 server has been running 24-7 since Aug 2010 and has not given me too many headaches. I am also a freelance broadcast engineer (designing and building radio stations), and any time something in the broadcast chain is mission critical (needs to be on the air 25 hours a day / 366 days a year) we stay away from brand name. Had more trouble with them than they were worth. Not to mention, if it is not brand name, I can go to local computer store and get parts to fix vs propitiatory stuff.

Even if I were going to do brand name, my original questions are still the same. Is my pooled VM thinking on the right track, and what would the spec for a server to run them be.

I will be setting up a test environment to start playing with this whole scenario. I can't seem to get any straight answers as to if my pool thinking is on the right track, and hardware requirements if it is. I have had answers from a 4 core Xeon 1620 with 32GB will be tons, to someone saying a 6 core Xeon 1650 will only run 1-2 VMs, to the cluster idea above. Really, a cluster for a couple remote workers? I did find a blog put out by Cisco that would suggest that with a mainstream Xeon (around $1000 processor) that core count and speed don't make too much difference until you start getting over 40 VMs. I am talking about under 10! It did suggest that core count makes more difference than speed once you hit the limitation.

Thanks again for the replies so far.
 

DavidRa

Infrastructure Architect
Aug 3, 2015
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Central Coast of NSW
www.pdconsec.net
Honestly dude if you're trying to do the right thing for the business you need to set your personal feelings aside on some of what you've said.

SBS is dead. I know a dead OS when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now. That OS is definitely deceased. The only reason it's still upright is that it's nailed to its perch. Windows 7 is out of support Jan 14 next year. It's dead, over, gone. Seriously, let it go.

If you're going to build a new environment, and with what you've mentioned:
  • You don't want consumer SSDs for servers. S2D is out because that's cluster-only. Datacenter SSDs only. Do not question this.
  • 16 cores will be your licensing requirement anyway, so you're not going to make great savings going to a single E3 or E5 cheapie
  • Your workstations will need to be 2-4 vCores and 6-8GB would be fine if just Office - so let's say 32 vCores and 64GB for those alone, you can oversubscribe the CPU at maybe 4:1 but not the RAM. Unless you use the embedded VDI stuff in Hyper-V, you're going to be leaving them all on (or giving non-tech people a way to log in as admins and start them, and I just wouldn't do that)
  • Put mail in Office 365, not local Exchange. You don't have the resiliency, redundancy or skills here. Feel free to do AD Connect and SSO but realise that also means ADFS, WAP and other moving parts
  • 2x DC - 2 cores and 4GB each, 100GB storage (~80 used)
  • ADFS - 2 cores and 4GB, 100GB storage (~40 used)
  • WAP - 2 cores and 4GB, 100GB storage (~40 used)
  • FS - 2 cores and 4GB, 100GB+ storage (~40+ used)
  • ADC - 2 cores and 4GB, 100GB storage (~40 used)
  • EX - if you're that set on it, 8 cores and 128GB, dedicated SSDs etc. I reckon 24GB will do it reasonably, but the MS spec is 128GB of RAM on Server 2019 only, and you won't have migration capability from SBS anyway.
  • ??? - anti-spam, anti-malware etc
  • ??? - VPN (unless you're planning RDPGW, in which case that's another WAP-like VM)
  • If you're doing 2 servers anyway, you could do HA with shared SAS storage (not really recommended, but it is possible) or iSCSI; your licensing will be higher. Otherwise a failure of either server causes outages (either you lose the fileserver or you lose the workstations accessing it).
Rough spec for a single server environment for this for me:
  • 1 x Xeon Silver 4114 or thereabouts - 10-12 cores, you'd be at 5:1 oversubscribed which should be acceptable and you could add the second 4114 to get to ~2.5:1 if core contention was a problem (seems unlikely)
  • 128GB without Exchange, 256GB with Exchange (4GB host + sum of VM RAM)
  • 2 x 240GB boot SSD (pref. HW RAID 1)
  • 2 x 800GB mix-workload cache SSD (aim for 10% of total space if you're using Storage Spaces tiering/caching here, since you have absolutely no IO numbers to use as data)
  • 8 x 2TB in RAID 10 for data (i.e all your VM disks, hibernation files, snapshots etc - we have NO idea what your data size is, so ... pick a number/size)
  • RAID controller needs to support proper passthrough for the cache and data disks but worst case you can built a completely unsupported solution on RAID sets with PowerShell
  • Windows Server Standard x 48 cores
  • VDI licensing for Win10
  • Veeam for backup to whatever you plan to use
You need to think about your bus factor. Right now your bus factor is below 1 - you don't even have 1 person who totally knows the environment and what's there (and going to be there). The business needs it to be 2. You pointed out that you're involved because it's family - but I can assure you if something goes wrong, and you can't fix it, you will be under fire. Also - what happens when you take a holiday? Get sick?

You definitely aren't allowed to use Action Pack licensing for this, unless your detergent company is also the MS partner org, which would be ... unlikely. Regardless, do you meet the requirements for Silver/Gold? If not, you won't have the CALs anyway.

You will need Server Standard with ~48 cores or Datacenter with 16 cores because Hyper-V server does not provide any licensing for any application functionality (e.g. DC, FS, etc), and you'll need the specific virtualisation licenses for the desktops. You'll get server 2019 now, use it. Don't get 2019 and install 2012 because you know it - you're not doing the right thing for the business.
 
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Shim

New Member
Sep 4, 2018
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Thanks David, awesome reply.

I have not laid out what I am doing for storage quite yet, other than the fact that any drives will be at a minimum SAS, most likely on a MegaRAID 9361 type card. Any RAID that I do will be HW, not SW that is for sure. My existing server used WD RE3 drives on an Areca RAID card. I would say that given they have been going 24-7 for almost a decade is a testament to using only enterprise drives on HW RAID and I totally agree with you on that one.

I am not dead set on the idea of SBS2011 or Windows 7. I had, as mentioned originally, intended to start a discussion later on that. My idea for this thread was purely to discuss hardware needs for a second machine to run VMs for remote workers and possibly QuickBooks users. You outlined some good info in your response which seems to line up with what I am learning via research I am doing in the meantime.

Since we are on the topic, I will be considering all things such as Office 365, Windows 10, and more recent Server OS'. Being involved in the broadcast industry, there are things, granted I have zero personal experience with them, that I don't like about Windows 10. It's necessity to force updates whenever it feels like it is one example, however I don't know if that is an issue if they are on a domain and using WSUS. As I mentioned in another post, I will spend some time with it and give it a fair shot. I will also have some of our staff give input as they are going to be the ones using it all day.

I know I can't use the Action Pack licensing for the business, but I can use them to set up a test environment.
 

Ruklaw

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Dec 12, 2016
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DavidRa

Infrastructure Architect
Aug 3, 2015
329
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Central Coast of NSW
www.pdconsec.net
David, you're reading quite a lot into the Exchange 2019 RAM requirements - There's absolutely no way that a organisation with 15 users needs 128gb of RAM for it's Exchange server. It probably doesn't even need that much storage in total.

The spec sheet for exchange 2016 quotes 8gb RAM for mailbox servers, 4gb for edge transport - Exchange Server 2019 system requirements, Exchange 2019 Requirements, Exchange 2019 Memory Requirements, Exchange 2019 Client Compatibility
I agree that 128GB is ridiculous, but that's why I said 24 will suffice. Note that Exchange 2013 and 2016 generally want 8GB just to start services, and 10GB is a more reasonable minimum even for 5-ish users. 4GB for an Edge isn't viable for more than a lab.

Also, 2019 has a different architecture for search, so won't be the same as 2016.
 

Shim

New Member
Sep 4, 2018
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Since this thread has been brought back from the dead, let me update it with my position and thoughts so far.

Although my questions were hardware related, I feel I need to discuss my software configuration a bit as it directly impacts the hardware choices.

As far as my original pool idea goes, I am scrapping it. I will have any office worker that is not in the office remote into their respective workstations. As far as remote workers, they will remote into one of a couple VMs. For QuickBooks, I'm thinking I will use RemoteApp for at least one seat. We have 3 people who are in it daily, and currently have 4 seats. I can also add seats for it if I need to. Moral of that story is I will not do VMs specifically for QuickBooks. I can do all this without needing RDS, and have it working that way now in my test environment discussed below.

I'm still on the fence on Exchange, however I think I will start out with it. If it ends up being a problem, which it has not for the past decade, I can quickly roll it into Office 365. I now have a bit of seat time with Windows 10 and wish that LTSB was available to the masses. Looks like I will be leaving 7 behind.

I have been playing with Hyper-V in a test environment using a second domain that we own but don't use allowing me freedom to play with it's DNS records. I have set up one VM with Server 2016 Standard with the essentials role added, a second 2016 with Exhcange 2016, and a couple Windows 10 VMs. This setup is on a Supermicro board with an E5-1650 with 32G of RAM. I am about to move it to an old dual socket X5650 with 72G of RAM on an Intel board and the LSI card mentioned below to do some more testing. This is the OS configuration I think I will be moving forward with. Let me discuss my hardware thoughts.

I am now thinking of doing one solid machine to run all the server and workstation VMs, somewhere around 16 cores with 96-128GB of RAM. Looking at something to keep the CPU speed around the 3GHz mark. I'm thinking something like 4 Vcores / 16G for the DC (it will be running a couple instances of QuickBooks), 6 Vcores / 32G for Exchange, and 4 Vcores / 16G for the couple Windows 10 VMs. Not sure if it will be a dual socket E5-2667 which gives me 16 cores at 3.2, or a single socket Gold 6242 16 cores at 2.8. The E5 has an advantage of some motherboard features I like, and the Gold has the advantage of two more memory channels of faster RAM. Cost between the two would probably be similar. With what I'm doing, I'm not sure how much the extra performance in the RAM will impact things (4ch of DDR4-2400 vs 6ch of DDR4-2933). I don't thing 96 vs 128 would make much difference. Anyone have any comments on the memory thing?

Storage will be handled by an LSI MegaRaid 9400-16i that I actually just ordered today. It has 16 ports that support SATA, SAS, and PCIe so I can do hardware RAID with PCIe SSDs if I want. Probably going to do a 5x4TB Raid 6 array for bulk storage, and unsure how I will handle the rest at the moment. Is there really any point in doing RAID with good enterprise SSDs? Theoretically, if you RAID 1 them, they both should pack it in around the same time, and that time is somewhat predictable. Would one not be better off with a solid and tested backup solution, especially if everything is VMs where you can spin them up on other hardware quite quickly? I have a few old HP DL380 G6 servers and a G7 that I will have at least one set up for me to move my VMs to, and my thinking is that I will do that on some schedule (somewhere between monthly and quarterly) to bare metal test my backups. It will also be nice to have a second box just to move the VMs to if I want to power down the main machine for things like cleaning fans, etc.
 

Shim

New Member
Sep 4, 2018
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Yup, typo. 9460-16i

Also realised today that my old Intel board only has 2 DIMMs per channel, so I will be testing the 12 core with only 48GB of RAM, not 72.