My September 2017 Workstation Build

Notice: Page may contain affiliate links for which we may earn a small commission through services like Amazon Affiliates or Skimlinks.

Patrick

Administrator
Staff member
Dec 21, 2010
12,511
5,792
113
@wildpig1234 thus far is working great.

I am more on a model where data is stored on the NAS and more is being run from servers. I really think of it more like the (huge) productivity tablet
 
  • Like
Reactions: William

Davewolfs

Active Member
Aug 6, 2015
339
32
28
Patrick, anymore update on your 1950x? seems like amd has a great base to build on to take on intel WS market but they still lacking details like ECC support and large amount of memory?

for us cheapskates, the 1950x is still not quite there since you can still build a 2011 v3 system that's faster for same price?
Lol - you’re a sicko with your V3s. They aren’t really faster.
 

CheapSushi

New Member
Sep 26, 2017
9
2
3
Reminds me again how awful the forced & arbitrary market segmentation is for ECC which ends up leaving a lack of options. You have to choose between ECC or no ECC because all the kits out there bog basic slow MHz. The JEDEC standard for DDR4 is already at 3200MHz. Surprise, surprise, no kit out there (that I'm aware of) is close to that. The only higher speed speed kit out there is from Crucial at 2666MHz. STH already showed RAM speed has significant improvement especially on AMD's Zen platform and in my opinion RAM speed has ALWAYS mattered. So, now what do you do if you go Threadripper AND want ECC AND want performance? Tough luck. It's a black and white decision. There's no middle ground at all. I mainly blame Intel for this situation. I hate it.

I'd love if STH, with its clout, nudged the industry to offer more choices and stop the segmentation on ECC and get at least ONE maker out there to provide the JEDEC standard 3200MHz at least. Registered/Buffered is the only segmentation that makes sense.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Stux

Patrick

Administrator
Staff member
Dec 21, 2010
12,511
5,792
113
I'd love if STH, with its clout, nudged the industry to offer more choices and stop the segmentation on ECC and get at least ONE maker out there to provide the JEDEC standard 3200MHz at least. Registered/Buffered is the only segmentation that makes sense.
My current goal is to push for more RDIMM support. RAM self-regulates on ECC v. non-ECC because non-ECC is less expensive to produce. We are firmly at the point where almost any system can run VMs or containers which means for the STH crowd we can effectively use more cores. Big limiters are the RAM capacity, a key complaint I have with the Xeon E3 segmentation. Likewise, on the TR side, I have told execs at AMD I want a RDIMM supporting version and something lower power for EPYC (or Ryzen w/ RDIMM support.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stux

CheapSushi

New Member
Sep 26, 2017
9
2
3
My current goal is to push for more RDIMM support. RAM self-regulates on ECC v. non-ECC because non-ECC is less expensive to produce. We are firmly at the point where almost any system can run VMs or containers which means for the STH crowd we can effectively use more cores. Big limiters are the RAM capacity, a key complaint I have with the Xeon E3 segmentation. Likewise, on the TR side, I have told execs at AMD I want a RDIMM supporting version and something lower power for EPYC (or Ryzen w/ RDIMM support.)
I feel like this is already a natural progression that will come out since RDIMMs make sense in the EPYC ecosystem with the 8 channels. Capacity is increasing as well; since this is a focus in the enterprise realm. So I think they'd become more available and trickle down without fuss to other Zen variants. I often see STH do posts that also appeal to enthusiasts and homelabber alike and the ECC + performance aspect is not being looked at all in the market. That's why I brought up maybe mentioning it at some point. The cost again is tied to the fact it's artificially market segmented on purpose, the prices are set for enterprise who are less price sensitive (and forced to do so because of the inherent business aspect) and the lack of broader acceptance (no middle market) also brings costs up aside from bill of materials. If say every single desktop DIMM had an ECC IC on it, price would be leveled off, even 25% of kits for enthusiasts came with it, it would bring price down. The fact seems no one cares about putting out a JEDEC approved 3200MHz (not overclocked) ECC kit out there. And now everyone is already talking about DDR5 with another paltry MHz bump that consumer kits already surpass often and will surpass again.


I feel like from every other piece of hardware we can all buy, we have a choice from a Toyota Yaris all the way to a Ferrari/Bugatti, etc. From GPU, to motherboard, to storage, to expansion cards, to CPU's themselves, there are so many options to fit any use case and scenario. But RAM...RAM is still archaic in options. Imagine if buying the latest NVMe SSD, you had to decide between the drive having ECC or not. No one really thinks of it anymore because it's so natural for it to be there in the first place.

Either way, I enjoy seeing your builds and other posts since it's good to see someone not just go for OEM Dell & HP readymades.
 
Last edited:

Patrick

Administrator
Staff member
Dec 21, 2010
12,511
5,792
113
@CheapSushi - ECC kits have additional RAM packages. That naturally drives costs up. There is plenty of volume in the server space.
 

CheapSushi

New Member
Sep 26, 2017
9
2
3
So again I suppose, if you want performance & ECC in a kit, well you're out of luck and will be for the foreseeable future. It's not an issue for folks building servers but if you want one system for content creation, simulations, gaming, storage, etc, you have to compromise on RAM unlike the rest of the system. I guess I'm just disappointed. Not an issue with the build or STH of course. Just rambling.
 
Last edited:

Davewolfs

Active Member
Aug 6, 2015
339
32
28
So again I suppose, if you want performance & ECC in a kit, well you're out of luck and will be for the foreseeable future. It's not an issue for folks building servers but if you want one system for content creation, simulations, gaming, storage, etc, you have to compromise on RAM unlike the rest of the system. I guess I'm just disappointed. Not an issue with the build or STH of course. Just rambling.
What the hell is wrong with DDR4 2666?
 

Stux

Member
May 29, 2017
30
10
8
46
I feel like this is already a natural progression that will come out since RDIMMs make sense in the EPYC ecosystem with the 8 channels. Capacity is increasing as well; since this is a focus in the enterprise realm. So I think they'd become more available and trickle down without fuss to other Zen variants. I often see STH do posts that also appeal to enthusiasts and homelabber alike and the ECC + performance aspect is not being looked at all in the market. That's why I brought up maybe mentioning it at some point. The cost again is tied to the fact it's artificially market segmented on purpose, the prices are set for enterprise who are less price sensitive (and forced to do so because of the inherent business aspect) and the lack of broader acceptance (no middle market) also brings costs up aside from bill of materials. If say every single desktop DIMM had an ECC IC on it, price would be leveled off, even 25% of kits for enthusiasts came with it, it would bring price down. The fact seems no one cares about putting out a JEDEC approved 3200MHz (not overclocked) ECC kit out there. And now everyone is already talking about DDR5 with another paltry MHz bump that consumer kits already surpass often and will surpass again.
In theory (as far as I understand it) an ECC DIMM should be no more than 12.5% more expensive than the same DIMM in non-ECC, purely because for every 8 chips, there's an extra.

I feel like from every other piece of hardware we can all buy, we have a choice from a Toyota Yaris all the way to a Ferrari/Bugatti, etc.
Where as currently you get the choice of a family car, a hot hatch (the overclocked memory), or a UNIMOG (enterprise grade, but slow).

Can't we have overclocked with ECC? Again, just charge for the extra chip.

From GPU, to motherboard, to storage, to expansion cards, to CPU's themselves, there are so many options to fit any use case and scenario. But RAM...RAM is still archaic in options. Imagine if buying the latest NVMe SSD, you had to decide between the drive having ECC or not. No one really thinks of it anymore because it's so natural for it to be there in the first place.
You mean like having to choose between consumer SSDs without PLP and enterprise SSDs with PLP?

Either way, I enjoy seeing your builds and other posts since it's good to see someone not just go for OEM Dell & HP readymades.
Yes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CheapSushi

CheapSushi

New Member
Sep 26, 2017
9
2
3
What the hell is wrong with DDR4 2666?
It's sub-par, insufficient, when you consider how much Zen's performance gains for higher RAM speed. If I'm going to spend $1000+ bucks, why the hell am I going to gimp myself for no reason? Yeah, I get it, most people on here or around don't really care when it comes to their server and just get the cheapest used DIMMs they can get on eBay (and everything else). But if you care about going above basic on a build, especially if you go Threadripper and want one machine, 3200MHz is the sweet spot right now in cost but higher is great too; only thing stopping 3600+, 4000MHz-ish is some issues with BIOS & dies (Samsung's B-dies being best). But Intel X299 boards are at 3600MHz now and I'm seeing 4000MHz+ kits working fine too. But again, no ECC. So you're forced to choose. If you're going to battle this from a perspective RAM speed doesn't matter, then don't bother. It's even worse if you're going to think this way with AMD's Zen. It makes me think of the type of argument like "what the hell is wrong with SATA AHCI SSDs? Why bother with NVMe? It's good enuff". I was sick of hearing this back at DDR3 systems as well; even after Intel's Haswell 1866 became standard at the CPU level, people still pretended 1333 was fine. Again, I get it, most homelabbers or folks on here who work in IT (and doing this for their resume) aren't really enthusiasts and just want to throw something in a black box and work, that's it. There's a whole segment, like me, that want a system above basic and care about making the most out of their setup. The JEDEC standard with ECC is up to 3200MHz either way. So they wasted their time evaluating that? Eh.


@Stux

You mean like having to choose between consumer SSDs without PLP and enterprise SSDs with PLP?
PLP is one of those things that I like as a choice. I'm glad their is a choice. To me, it's more on level with RDIMMs. But the difference here with PLP vs ECC is, with PLP, it's an EXTRA you can decide on because there's good options in terms of drives for performance, form factors and other features; from NVMe sticks from Samsung to other brands, to SATA AHCI drives; there are various controllers from each brand, you can get MLC to TLC NAND, DRAMless or not; LOTS of options. And they all come with ECC though. You don't get this option with ECC RAM DIMMs though. It's not JUST an extra you can choose to pay for or not. You're FORCED to decide in a black and white manner, because A) there's no higher MHz kits out there and B) your forced to pick the right CPU and C) also have to make sure you pick the right motherboard, even if you got the right CPU. PLP on storage drives is more agnostic in terms of working.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Stux

wildpig1234

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2016
2,197
443
83
49
anymore update on yr 1950x?

finally got my asus z9pe-d16 to put my dual 2696v2 into. maybe just me but I've tried two supermicro MB and both were giving random lock up with the latest win10. the asus board is stable and support s3 sleep to ram which the two supermicro boards I got don't.

anyway, here's are some of my benchmarks. except for the single core score, dual 2696v2 system pretty much gives equal performance to 1950x for a much cheaper price:

2x 2696 v2: $580
asus z9pe-d16: $360
64gb ddr3 ecc: $$150 all the essential part for less than $1100!

check out the attached benchmark!
View attachment 6697 View attachment 6693
 

wildpig1234

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2016
2,197
443
83
49
https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/7980XE-CB15.png. $2000 for one cpu.

even with the latest and greatest and most expensive and fastest single cpu, it still can't even come close to dual 2686 v3 cinebench of 3700+. if you pay a little more for dual 2696 v3 you will get cinebench of 4300. not to mention much more max memory and not limited to 128gb and non ecc memory. long live 2011 v3!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pepe

Kneelbeforezod

Active Member
Sep 4, 2015
529
122
43
46
https://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/7980XE-CB15.png. $2000 for one cpu.

even with the latest and greatest and most expensive and fastest single cpu, it still can't even come close to dual 2686 v3 cinebench of 3700+. if you pay a little more for dual 2696 v3 you will get cinebench of 4300. not to mention much more max memory and not limited to 128gb and non ecc memory. long live 2011 v3!
But you're comparing apples and oranges. One is single cpu platform that's more super high end enthusiast - i mean the boards have LED Lights. What proper workstation board has light right? Sure V3 is great value and performance for the money if you can get a good deal but prices are not really coming down like I'd have thought. But again i don't think they're comparable. Yes you can compare numbers but the target audience is different ti think
 

wildpig1234

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2016
2,197
443
83
49
But you're comparing apples and oranges. One is single cpu platform that's more super high end enthusiast - i mean the boards have LED Lights. What proper workstation board has light right? Sure V3 is great value and performance for the money if you can get a good deal but prices are not really coming down like I'd have thought. But again i don't think they're comparable. Yes you can compare numbers but the target audience is different ti think
led lights? lol... I didn't even know about that... well, a lot of people probably don't know about 2nd hand xeon value. I am still not quite sure what is the audience for the latest I9 $2k cpu. it's certainly not for most of the people in this forum. and it's certainly too much for most gamers anyway.
 

William

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2015
789
252
63
66
led lights? lol... I didn't even know about that... well, a lot of people probably don't know about 2nd hand xeon value. I am still not quite sure what is the audience for the latest I9 $2k cpu. it's certainly not for most of the people in this forum. and it's certainly too much for most gamers anyway.
You are spot on. Lots of people use i9's and fancy boards with LED's for workstations, even for servers, I know as I used to build OC'd systems for all kinds of people, many in the HFT segments.
 

IamSpartacus

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2016
2,515
650
113
@Patrick any more feedback on your Threadripper workstation? Run into any issues that you can speak to with regard to your MoBo choice and/or the TR1950x specifically?

Seriously considering a TR1950x for my new build but I can't seem to pull the trigger because I keep reading that there are still some latency/NUMA issues that haven't been worked out.
 

Patrick

Administrator
Staff member
Dec 21, 2010
12,511
5,792
113
@Patrick any more feedback on your Threadripper workstation? Run into any issues that you can speak to with regard to your MoBo choice and/or the TR1950x specifically?

Seriously considering a TR1950x for my new build but I can't seem to pull the trigger because I keep reading that there are still some latency/NUMA issues that haven't been worked out.
Great question.

The single thread performance is certainly better than my old dual E5 V3, and power consumption is lower. Stability wise, I think the E5 V3 was (crazy) stable and the consumer platform with Windows does need to be rebooted more often.

Nowadays, the 1950X is much less expensive, so that would certainly play a role for me. With the dual E5's I still had two NUMA nodes so I am probably not the best at noticing the performance hit. Then again, the dual E5's each NUMA node had twice the number of slower DDR4 channels.

I do like the new system. I have the E5 V3 workstation sitting next to me and have not turned it on since September (likely going to the Q1/Q2 lab cleaning thread at some point.)
 

zir_blazer

Active Member
Dec 5, 2016
355
128
43
I'm still severely dissapointed that there is no proper Workstation or Server level Ryzen or ThreadRipper Motherboards with UDIMM ECC and IPMI. The Processors themselves are fine, is the fact that there are only consumer type platforms what annoys me.