Security Camera Recording Question (ZFS RELATED)

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T_Minus

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I plan to have around 10 security cameras running 24/7 720p - 3mp currently. I already have I believe 6 cameras.

I was thinking of 2 things:

1- Motion sense only. BUT, we live rural and have tall trees so any wind = recording.

2- Recording and keeping 36 hours of 'records' or up to 25% of HD space.



Questions/Concerns

0. Has anyone done #1 or #2 above, experiences? Data generated per-day from 10x 3mp cameras? (Assuming I upgrade)

1. Do I want to be recording constantly to my storage/media streaming RAID-z2 pool?
Probably not... probably should record to a mirrored set of smaller drives so I'm not streaming, and recording 6+ streams to the same pool.

1b. With that said; would I be better off doing 2x1TB for 3 cameras, 2x1TB for 3 Cameras, etc, or just 1 'stream/camera recording pool'? (Those #s were random, I'm not sure the bandwidth req. yet I haven't checked.)

2. Has anyone done a 2ndary network for their security cameras? I'm going to guess if you're not recording ALL 10 3mp cameras at once at 30fps it won't matter.

H.264 6 Cameras 10FPS Recording 24Hours 3MP each 64KB Frame Size 2 Day of Storage

Bandwidth: 30.7 Mbps
AVG Per-Camera: 5.1
Storage Per-Day: 331.8 GB

10 cameras:
Bandwidth: 51.2 Mbps
Storage Per-Day: 1.1TB


Probably just use 2TB RE x 2 in RAID1 as I don't think it will actually record 24/7, and the file sizes should shrink when it's pitch black with no IR illumination.
 

PigLover

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2. Has anyone done a 2ndary network for their security cameras? I'm going to guess if you're not recording ALL 10 3mp cameras at once at 30fps it won't matter.
I won't address 1a and 1b - cuz that's mostly just math and a decision about hammering a disk drive or not...

But for the separate LAN: yes, absolutely, you want to do this. Not because the cameras will put too much load on the LAN - they won't. But because most of the cameras you can buy - no matter if Swan, Hikvision, Dahua or anything else - are easily hacked and often have trojans in the firmware that will pierce right through your outbound NAT. Perhaps its paranoid - but my cameras are on a segregated LAN that has absolutely no path to/from the internet. All the cameras have static IPs set in them so no need for DHCP or DNS. The lan segment is connected to the cameras and one LAN port on the server hosting the NVR, and the NVR has a separate port connected to the "regular" LAN. I know - paranoid.

I suppose its possible that there is some trojan that can backdoor the NVR server and drive through it, but that seems unlikely.

Note: its not really a physically separate LAN - same switch - just isolated onto a VLAN. So see - I'm not totally paranoid.

Note2: if you do this you probably need to enable NTP server on the machine hosting your NVR to that you can have all the cameras sync to a common time source.
 
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T_Minus

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That sounds like my kind of thinking! Exactly what I was going to do. Except I was going to literally use separate LAN hardware, and AP :) LOL.
 

T_Minus

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Lets just say I live on enough land where you can't get wifi unless you're within viewing distance, or using a directional antenna which isn't possible in the trees ;)

I'm not saying they aren't manually configured but I'm not worried about someone hacking my WiFi from any distance at this time.

Between dogs and gates we know someone is here, lol at-least when we're home :)

My neighbors don't have garages, or those that do don't have doors. Not a joke.
 

Deci

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drop the cameras feed output to 2-4mbit and 10fps then check your image quality, i found it to be easily clear enough and means 8tb can store nearly a months footage with 16 cameras, i also wouldnt hammer a general storage array with NVR duties.
 
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T_Minus

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drop the cameras feed output to 2-4mbit and 10fps then check your image quality, i found it to be easily clear enough and means 8tb can store nearly a months footage with 16 cameras, i also wouldnt hammer a general storage array with NVR duties.
That was 10fps, but the HighQ to Medium quality (2-4mbit setting) def. does save space.

I think a lot of people even go with 5FPS which I think may be worth testing.

I want them fast enough to catch wild life running in more than a frame or two :)

Then again I fear the tree movement will have them 'active' all the time... my game cameras although only get about 5-10 false positives of movement in a week, BUT I'm not sure which is better at detecting movement. The game camera or software/blue iris :) If blue Iris is, and it's on record on movement then we can expect a TON more saving too.

I'll be keeping 2 WD RE4 2TB for a mirrored pool for camera duty.
Has anyone tested a SSD for cameras that use motion sensor? Does it 'instant write' faster? IE: Would using a cheap intel 320 SLOG device improve the "start" of recording? If so, that could be useful for catching fast action.
 

CJ145

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Mar 11, 2015
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Look into Zoneminder for the motion detection, it is excellent with proper CPU power and also allows full tweaking of motion detection.

I don't see why you need to worry about the start of recording? Any good software will retain previous frames and write them on trigger, so you get a few frames before the detection happened.

Even if all 10 triggered at the same time you wouldn't be passing the disk buffer on a single disk. I tested pushing 45FPS at 3MP 400KiB/frame into a USB2 hdd, more than enough speed still, and that is choked by USB.
 
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canta

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Look into Zoneminder for the motion detection, it is excellent with proper CPU power and also allows full tweaking of motion detection.

I don't see why you need to worry about the start of recording? Any good software will retain previous frames and write them on trigger, so you get a few frames before the detection happened.

Even if all 10 triggered at the same time you wouldn't be passing the disk buffer on a single disk. I tested pushing 45FPS at 3MP 400KiB/frame into a USB2 hdd, more than enough speed still, and that is choked by USB.
I am totally agree with you.
I am running zoneminder since last year..
bought 1 cam and more with total 5 cam.
Zoneminder is not easy for the beginner, but I got resourceful information from zm forum, youtube, and the net.

to minimize space, I do using motion detection, 80% as expected. I am good:D
I plan to add 1 extra cam for monitoring garage/drive way.

oh, btw. wifi cam is suck!!. I switched to wired on some...

I do setting deletion after 7 days.

other missing one::
I set all recording to standalone 80GB 2.5 HD that connected to sata port.
let poor 80gb HD got hammered for recording , since easy to replace standalone.
 
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canta

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AP? NOOOO. No WiFi cameras allowed. Danger, Will Robinson! Danger. ;););)
other thought:
I have bad experience on wifi cam. disconnection happens randomly, especially during recording due on trigger event on Zoneminder.
 

Angus

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Depending on what VMS you use.. you could do something like 4 FPS constant and then bump it up on motion.

Try to keep the motion detection on the camera.. pretty much all cameras support it.. and then there is no load on your CPU.

Your recording storage numbers seem off... I ran them through AXIS Design Tool | Axis Communications which we typically use.. and get way less hard drive usage...
 

Mr. F

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I also isolate my (hikvision) cameras onto a separate network and have the firewall set to drop anything trying to reach the internet from them for the same reasons PigLover mentioned - you just don't know what's baked into the firmware on these units. I also have the PoE switch physically isolated from the rest of the network with 2 SFPs and a fiber patch cable to prevent any static or surges that might get in from making it through the rest of the network devices and servers since some of the cameras are outdoors.

I started my IP cam endeavor by doing what you mention - recording everything 24/7 - but quickly found that much 'footage' useless in figuring out whether any of it was actually useful. I'm now running motion detection on the cameras, and while I do get several false positives during the day I can look at the timeline and see a few short clips to run through rather than a full day of recordings. Anything worth watching is usually more than the pre-record buffer (30s) + the minimum record interval (30s). Motion detect on the cameras themselves also avoids burning a ton of CPU on doing it in the NVR.

Regarding disk setup - I run my NVR inside a VM and I'm using a collection of small VHDs on individual non-raid drives. They're backed up to a NAS infrequently since I'm not super concerned about keeping long backups of the recordings. 2 large disks in a mirror configuration is probably ideal if you want a bit of redundancy.
 
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T_Minus

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I ran them through some random online tool, so the numbers could be way off.

Great to know less HD usage, will make my 2TB last much longer :)


Thanks guys for all the input. So far my WiFi cameras have been fine. I only have 2, I have some direct burial Cat7 too so I hope to reach out and eliminate some of the WiFi cameras.

Ideally I'd like to do a 200ft run of Cat7 shielded&direct burial to power a remote POE Switch so I can run 3 cameras... anyone know if the capacity is available for this, and if so which remote POE switch that provides POE for 3 low-power cameras? I'm trying to get out to the start of the driveway ;) I have 220v power way out there for my well, and will probably put in a breaker-box and just break-out 1 leg to use for 2 120v power-outlets, and then I could stick a "real" POE switch out there, and not be limited to the distance/power. This is actually ideal, then I could run another 100ft-200ft and start getting views of the road, and bottom of the driveway.

My goal is to have complete coverage of the "front" and driveway so my wife can feel more secure, and we also like to watch the animals come in :)
We have neighbor dogs, deer, bears, coyotes, fox, rabbits, and more that are always setting off game cameras.
 

T_Minus

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I also isolate my (hikvision) cameras onto a separate network and have the firewall set to drop anything trying to reach the internet from them for the same reasons PigLover mentioned - you just don't know what's baked into the firmware on these units. I also have the PoE switch physically isolated from the rest of the network with 2 SFPs and a fiber patch cable to prevent any static or surges that might get in from making it through the rest of the network devices and servers since some of the cameras are outdoors.

I started my IP cam endeavor by doing what you mention - recording everything 24/7 - but quickly found that much 'footage' useless in figuring out whether any of it was actually useful. I'm now running motion detection on the cameras, and while I do get several false positives during the day I can look at the timeline and see a few short clips to run through rather than a full day of recordings. Anything worth watching is usually more than the pre-record buffer (30s) + the minimum record interval (30s). Motion detect on the cameras themselves also avoids burning a ton of CPU on doing it in the NVR.

Regarding disk setup - I run my NVR inside a VM and I'm using a collection of small VHDs on individual non-raid drives. They're backed up to a NAS infrequently since I'm not super concerned about keeping long backups of the recordings. 2 large disks in a mirror configuration is probably ideal if you want a bit of redundancy.
Great idea about separate the POE switch/camera stuff with optics. I can do that too, my NetGear switches all have that option.

Should I consider an isolation transformer for the POE Switch that's 'way out there' (planned), or, I can check the 120v leg and make sure it's on the same as the other networking gear in-house? I'm really careful and specific about about power too, all my stuff goes through Backups & Often Tripplite AVR too just to be 100% since we do have spikes, and power outages VERY OFTEN.

I think I may run 100% separate hardware for cameras. I have enough 8port netgear smart POE switches for my cameras for now, and can just run everything else to the LB4m I have coming, and put a dedicatd 1Gig port to the ESXI Guest for the cameras and connect that to the security camera network. That should make sure the main network isn't congested, isolated, and more secure. I don't even have to hook the camera network to the router/internet, and only access them via the ESXI Guest OS or media server which was the plan for access/viewing.
 

T_Minus

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By the way.

I already purchased Blue Iris.

But what camera monitoring software do you guys use? I see mention of some other motion sensing software.

Is there any "security" OS with all this built in? I really hate the idea of having to run windows just to run Blue Iris.

I also wouldn't mind more features / ease of use, etc...

So, what's everyone using? (Must be able to run as ESXI Guest VM)
 

Angus

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What are you trying to do with the "Security OS"? Just asking.. because you can go far.. depends on what you want.. IE Genetec has their own full line of access control that is all baked into security Center.. probably not what your after but its out there..

Milestone as well has some options ranging from fairly cheap to expensive... Lots of the more advanced VMS's have lots of options as to how to archive.. IE motion gets dumped to drive y, regular footage gets dumped to drive x etc.. Milestone will let you record say at 20 FPS, and after 15 days prune it down to 10 FPS etc...I don't remember if there was a version that you needed for that feature though...

Genetec similar ideas.. you can have your main archiver and then auxiliary archiver for events.. backup archiver in case the primary goes down.. but In reality its not cheap and probably way way overkill for home use... But its out there :)

Blue Iris I have heard of, have running.. but haven't really played with.. I use it to transcode some cheap camera's so I can bring them up on my Control 4 touch panel... but from what I read its supposed to be pretty full featured.
 

T_Minus

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I honestly have no idea what's out there, what they cost and the benefits.

I just know Blue Iris is "clunky" but it works.

I probably wouldn't want to spend more than $200-400$ for Software / OS for the security camera system.
 

Mr. F

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Should I consider an isolation transformer for the POE Switch that's 'way out there' (planned), or, I can check the 120v leg and make sure it's on the same as the other networking gear in-house? I'm really careful and specific about about power too, all my stuff goes through Backups & Often Tripplite AVR too just to be 100% since we do have spikes, and power outages VERY OFTEN.
I don't think that's necessary since ethernet ports have built-in isolation (802.3 spec requires it), but I'd definitely use fiber to isolate the PoE switch from the rest of your gear if you have anything outside. You could even get an outdoor vault to mount the PoE switch and use something cheap with a screaming fan from ebay.

Ubiquiti (and others) make a special outdoor Cat5e cable that's shielded and has a dedicated grounding wire so you can make sure the outdoor cameras are properly grounded and that any exposed cable has a properly UV shielded jacket. You can also get shielded RJ-45 modular plugs that have a strap for the ground wire. I would say this is the way to go for doing anything outdoors with ethernet.

By the way.

I already purchased Blue Iris.

But what camera monitoring software do you guys use? I see mention of some other motion sensing software.

Is there any "security" OS with all this built in? I really hate the idea of having to run windows just to run Blue Iris.

I also wouldn't mind more features / ease of use, etc...

So, what's everyone using? (Must be able to run as ESXI Guest VM)
I use Hikvision cameras, so I use their free iVMS-PCNVR software and iOS app. Mainly because it's free, and it allows me to do motion detection on the cameras themselves so the VM has zero CPU usage unless an event is triggered. It runs inside a Windows VM which is also isolated from directly accessing the internet.

I've been wanting to start an open source project for a long time to build a dedicated linux-based IP camera NVR package, but haven't really gotten it off the ground...
 

PigLover

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Blue Iris works great and the developers are very responsive to bugs. In fact my one complaint is that updates are distributed too frequenly.

Make sure you run it in the background using the 'run as a service' option. That way it keeps running after your PC reboots on Patch Tuesday ;)
 

T_Minus

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Blue Iris works great and the developers are very responsive to bugs. In fact my one complaint is that updates are distributed too frequenly.

Make sure you run it in the background using the 'run as a service' option. That way it keeps running after your PC reboots on Patch Tuesday ;)
Great advice.

Those of you running Blue Iris, are you using the Windows VM for anything else? Seems like it should be doing something else. It's a lot of "OS" to sit and do nothing.

What about resources BI needs, I take it for 6 cameras it would be more CPU buond than RAM as I recall BI was limited to 4GB ram?