Now, about this new Micro Server from this aluminum fruit purveyor....

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WANg

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Apple announced their new Mac Mini today - not sure about the internals yet (I am still waiting for the teardown from iFixit, and that's not happening for another week), but so far the word is that they bought back the freaking DIMM slots, although I need more info on the SSD form factor - knowing Apple it'll likely be proprietary. The pricing is a bit steep (Core i5 model with 8GB RAM is about $1200), but if you have an old MacBook laying around they are good for trading off for a few bucks. So, thoughts? Seems like a decent little MicroServer...
 

ttabbal

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The pricing is a bit insane, frankly. If you really need small form factor, the NUC line is a better value. Unless you need OSX. If you need that, well, you do what you need to.

And they can't have my MBP. I'm keeping it till it spontaneously combusts. The new ones removed all the reasons I had to like them, other than OSX. And even that is starting to get less interesting. When it does finally die, I have no idea what I'll do. Probably sob in a corner somewhere. :)
 

BlueFox

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I'd get an Intel NUC for a fraction of the price if I wanted that form factor. Just run OS X in a VM if you need it.
 

WANg

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The pricing is a bit insane, frankly. If you really need small form factor, the NUC line is a better value. Unless you need OSX. If you need that, well, you do what you need to.

And they can't have my MBP. I'm keeping it till it spontaneously combusts. The new ones removed all the reasons I had to like them, other than OSX. And even that is starting to get less interesting. When it does finally die, I have no idea what I'll do. Probably sob in a corner somewhere. :)
Yeah, well - the $799 base model is an i3, but the 6-core i5 will be $1199. It's not great, but remember that there are those out there who paid $999 for the 2011 Mac Mini dual spindle server out there not too long ago, and those RAM slots/custom aluminum chassis does help give the machine a measure of longevity that you won't get from other Apple models.

Also, Apple will pry my Retina MBP/MBA11 from my cold dead hands.
 
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MiniKnight

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They could've had this market years ago, but NUCs have completely beat them, and they're cheaper too. I'd only get one if I needed OSX. Apple lost this market and it's not coming back.
 

WANg

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They could've had this market years ago, but NUCs have completely beat them, and they're cheaper too. I'd only get one if I needed OSX. Apple lost this market and it's not coming back.
Well, their target audience isn't end users per-se, it's the corporates who are mandated by their gigs to run OSX VMs (devs who are writing iOS/MacOS code who needs automated orchestrated environments to do bug repos, etc) - they can't use Hackintosh VMs, and the XServes are too old for their needs. In other words, the same people who bought the dual spindle quad core Mac Mini Server back in 2012. The same people who might have a few Mac Minis mounted on custom 1U enclosures in a data center running 24/7 for their $dayjob (aka people like me).

I get why they are selling it at this price point and who the machine is aiming for. If I don't have to pay my own cash money to obtain one (leverage corporate credit card points earned, use a few trade-ins on the discard pool, etc, to offset the pricing) it's not really that bad. Also, don't forget that in a few years these machines will age out and percolate down the corporate amortization pool into the homelab environment...A good guess is that just like the 2011/2012 Mac Minis of today, their aluminum chassis will lend them much more longevity than their plastic NUC cousins. I mean, who doesn't want a cool, quiet, 6-core Coffee lake server with 64GB of RAM and 10GbE networking, especially if someone else paid for it the first time already? Hell, I would like one to replace my noisy Gigabyte BRIX i7-5775R.
 
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Evan

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As an owner of a Thunderbolt Display it’s a nice option to have a desktop.
I would say as always a bit pricy for Apple (but that includes the OS and with NUC etc you need to now pay for windows 10)
It will I am sure he very power efficient and have the normal Apple build quality :)
 

gigatexal

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The Mac mini is priced pretty high. That is true. But anyone who is productive in the OSX ecosystem like myself (I’m often torn between Linux and Mac these days) and appreciates the aesthetic of the machine and will gladly pay for this upgrade.

I was toying with the idea of getting the base 6 core model but upgrading to the faster 6 core and bumping the SSD to 512GB. Since the ram looks upgradable I’ll just do that myself and call it a day.

The T2 chip will mean you’ll likely see really good SSD perf from this thing something you likely won’t see in a standard NUC unless you’re running an Optane SSD.
 

BlueLineSwinger

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The pricing is a bit insane, frankly. If you really need small form factor, the NUC line is a better value. Unless you need OSX. If you need that, well, you do what you need to.

Eh, maybe a bit when compared to a NUC, but I'd not say insane. It's not possible to do a direct comparison, but this is what I came up with:

NUC BOXNUC8i5BEK1: $390
(Went with the i5 NUC because the i3 is only dual core. The Mini's CPU still is much faster at base but can't quite match the NUC's turbo (on two cores, on four they're even). The NUC's iGPU is appears to be better though. Its CPU also has hyperthreading and probably more L3 cache.)

Crucial CT2K4G4SFS824A 4GB x2: $70
(NUCs use DDR4-2400, the Mini accepts DDR4-2666.)

Corsair Force MP500 128GB: $100
(Assuming here that the Mini is using the equivalent of a NVMe MLC SSD (we know it's PCIe). Apple always over-specs the SSD even where a SATA unit would be just fine.)

Windows 10 Home: $99
(Yeah yeah, Linux. But the Mini includes a commercially supported OS, and Windows is the closest match to it. One could also argue that Win10 Pro, at +$50, is a closer match to macOS.)

Total: $659

So, $140 cheaper (the base Mini is $799). Not great, but could be worse. I'd bet that willingness to go mITX over NUC would increase that difference some.

Other Mini advantages/drawbacks:
+ +3 Thunderbolt 3 (this is probably a big chuck of the premium $ right here)
+ DisplayPort 1.4 (1.3?) (5k display support)
+ +1 external USB 3
+ Expandable to 64GB RAM
+ Built-in PSU
+ Support for up to 3 displays
+ Aluminum case
- Non-upgradeable SSD
- Seriously, soldered-in SSD
- 1 year warranty
- Size

Other NUC advantages/drawbacks:
+ Upgradeable SSD
+ Size
+ External microSD slot
+ 3 year warranty
- Limited to 32 GB RAM
- Only a single TB3 port (that could be eaten by a DisplayPort monitor)
- DisplayPort 1.2
- Supports 2 displays max (Intel's spec page says 3, but there's only one each of HDMI and TB3/DisplayPort)
- External power brick
- Plastic case

So the Mac tax is there, but it's hardly so egregious at least in the base config. Especially when you consider its base CPU speed and additional TB3/DP ports. It really does come out though once you start upgrading the Mini's SSD (at least RAM can be bought aftermarket). Though you could probably say much the same about any other OEM's upgrade pricing.
 

BlueLineSwinger

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The T2 chip will mean you’ll likely see really good SSD perf from this thing something you likely won’t see in a standard NUC unless you’re running an Optane SSD.

The T2 is just the controller. The Mini (and every other Mac) is using the same NAND that everyone else uses in their SSDs. There's no reason to believe that the Mini's SSD will have any better throughput, latency, or endurance than any other MLC-based (I'm guessing here) NVMe SSD.

Though I wish it was using Optane, because then at least Apple's upgrade pricing would make some sense.
 

gigatexal

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The T2 is just the controller. The Mini (and every other Mac) is using the same NAND that everyone else uses in their SSDs. There's no reason to believe that the Mini's SSD will have any better throughput, latency, or endurance than any other MLC-based (I'm guessing here) NVMe SSD.

Though I wish it was using Optane, because then at least Apple's upgrade pricing would make some sense.
This seems quicker than the competition even if they’re using the controller to raid SSD disks - this and with encryption and such all done on the fly. 2018 MacBook Pro Benchmarked After Bug Fix: It's This Much Faster
 

gigatexal

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Eh, maybe a bit when compared to a NUC, but I'd not say insane. It's not possible to do a direct comparison, but this is what I came up with:

NUC BOXNUC8i5BEK1: $390
(Went with the i5 NUC because the i3 is only dual core. The Mini's CPU still is much faster at base but can't quite match the NUC's turbo (on two cores, on four they're even). The NUC's iGPU is appears to be better though. Its CPU also has hyperthreading and probably more L3 cache.)

Crucial CT2K4G4SFS824A 4GB x2: $70
(NUCs use DDR4-2400, the Mini accepts DDR4-2666.)

Corsair Force MP500 128GB: $100
(Assuming here that the Mini is using the equivalent of a NVMe MLC SSD (we know it's PCIe). Apple always over-specs the SSD even where a SATA unit would be just fine.)

Windows 10 Home: $99
(Yeah yeah, Linux. But the Mini includes a commercially supported OS, and Windows is the closest match to it. One could also argue that Win10 Pro, at +$50, is a closer match to macOS.)

Total: $659

So, $140 cheaper (the base Mini is $799). Not great, but could be worse. I'd bet that willingness to go mITX over NUC would increase that difference some.

Other Mini advantages/drawbacks:
+ +3 Thunderbolt 3 (this is probably a big chuck of the premium $ right here)
+ DisplayPort 1.4 (1.3?) (5k display support)
+ +1 external USB 3
+ Expandable to 64GB RAM
+ Built-in PSU
+ Support for up to 3 displays
+ Aluminum case
- Non-upgradeable SSD
- Seriously, soldered-in SSD
- 1 year warranty
- Size

Other NUC advantages/drawbacks:
+ Upgradeable SSD
+ Size
+ External microSD slot
+ 3 year warranty
- Limited to 32 GB RAM
- Only a single TB3 port (that could be eaten by a DisplayPort monitor)
- DisplayPort 1.2
- Supports 2 displays max (Intel's spec page says 3, but there's only one each of HDMI and TB3/DisplayPort)
- External power brick
- Plastic case

So the Mac tax is there, but it's hardly so egregious at least in the base config. Especially when you consider its base CPU speed and additional TB3/DP ports. It really does come out though once you start upgrading the Mini's SSD (at least RAM can be bought aftermarket). Though you could probably say much the same about any other OEM's upgrade pricing.
The NUC comparison is apples vs oranges because the only reason imo to get a Mac mini is to get all that power in a small form factor to leverage OSX (if you like OSX) because you can’t find a NUC with a 6 core CPU yet.

And if you appreciate the design aesthetic (the power brick is included for example) and if the sodimms are user upgradable it’s a compelling upgrade me thinks.

That said for my Plex needs I’m just going to build a NUC.
 

BlueFox

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I think it's worth noting that the NUC is only about a quarter of the size and the reason why you're not getting similar processors in the NUC (larger models notwithstanding) is because Apple chose the 65W CPU SKUs. They really do kill you price wise on the non-upgradable SSD. I also have a feeling Apple is using 32GB DIMMs, which if you can manage to locate some, should work in any of the NUCs as well. They'll just cost you an arm and leg (still probably less than the $1400 Apple wants).
 

WANg

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The NUC comparison is apples vs oranges because the only reason imo to get a Mac mini is to get all that power in a small form factor to leverage OSX (if you like OSX) because you can’t find a NUC with a 6 core CPU yet.

And if you appreciate the design aesthetic (the power brick is included for example) and if the sodimms are user upgradable it’s a compelling upgrade me thinks.

That said for my Plex needs I’m just going to build a NUC.
The Mac Mini will likely do a better job wicking away heat, considering that it's an aluminum enclosure that'll act more like a massive heatsink...but yeah, it's meant for Mac people who needs something more server-like (developing MacOS/iOS apps and running scripted QA testing on a fleet of retired MacBook Air is a ridiculous idea - I was part of that conversation with the head of dev at one of the previous gig and we ended up racking Mac Minis instead)

Or buy an HP t730. Those are decent for Plex.
 
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Patriot

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This seems quicker than the competition even if they’re using the controller to raid SSD disks - this and with encryption and such all done on the fly. 2018 MacBook Pro Benchmarked After Bug Fix: It's This Much Faster
That's because they aren't using nice NVME drives in those laptops... Those are PM953 TLC drives and the 256GB versions max at about that low on writes... Throw in a PM983 and those laptops will match or exceed the macbook, which can't upgrade it's nvme. I never order my laptop with nvme because they put the lowest end drives in them. Especially when you can get PM983's for so cheap.
 

WANg

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I think it's worth noting that the NUC is only about a quarter of the size and the reason why you're not getting similar processors in the NUC (larger models notwithstanding) is because Apple chose the 65W CPU SKUs. They really do kill you price wise on the non-upgradable SSD. I also have a feeling Apple is using 32GB DIMMs, which if you can manage to locate some, should work in any of the NUCs as well. They'll just cost you an arm and leg (still probably less than the $1400 Apple wants).
Eh, you don't want a 65w SoC in a NUC - I made the mistake of buying a Gigabyte Brix with an i7-5775R (Iris Pro 6200 graphics), and it was loud when ramped up. I appreciate the extra firepower (slightly slower than a Xeon E3-1585L v5), but that thing was noisy and prone to cooking its components. Now in terms of SSD being non-upgradeable, I am still waiitng for iFixit to do a teardown. It could be a direct solder, or it could be a custom form factor (like the unit found in the non-touchbar Skylake MBPs). I hope its the latter, honestly. That being said, this machine will still be useful driving TB3 or USB3 multi-disk enclosures down the line, so I am not too non-plussed about the pricey storage options.
 
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BlueLineSwinger

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The NUC comparison is apples vs oranges because the only reason imo to get a Mac mini is to get all that power in a small form factor to leverage OSX (if you like OSX) because you can’t find a NUC with a 6 core CPU yet.

Well, yeah, that was one of the points I was trying to make, and that if you considered the Mini's strengths relative to the NUC the cost wasn't so bad.

Heck, I have some free time, let's do something more comparable to the base Mini in mITX. The closest I could get (just off NewEgg, not going to scour the entire Internet for pricing):

Intel i3-8100: $130
(same CPU as the Mini.)

ASRock Z390 PHANTOM GAMING-ITX/AC: $180
(Only mITX mainboard I could find that has TB3 and USB 3.1 gen2.)

Corsair Vengeance LPX 8GB (2 x 4GB): $78
(Matches the Mini's DDR4-2666.)

Corsair Force MP500 120GB: $100
(Same as before.)

SilverStone SST-FTZ01S-E: $126
(About the only mITX case I see that approximates the Mini's size, style, and materials.)

Corsair SF450 450W: $86
(Least expensive gold or better SFX unit I could find.)

Windows 10 Home: $99

Total: $799 (I swear I didn't plan that.)

I'm surprised, I really thought the mITX would be a better deal. And it's still missing some of the Mini's functionality, such as multiple TB3 ports and DisplayPort 1.4. Though you do get better audio options and expandability (e.g., PCIe slot, +1 m.2, SATA ports).

There are some things you can do to knock that price down if you're willing to compromise. The Fractal Node 202/PSU combo knocks ~$80 off for a steel (but still decent) case and less efficient PSU. A mainboard without TB3, USB 3.1 g2, and/or other features can reduce things from ~$0-50+. Dropping the SSD to TLC NAND and/or SATA can substantially reduce the cost. But if you do all that, you're back to comparing Apples and oranges.

To compare with the 6-core Mini ($1099), substitute the following for the above components:
Intel i5-8500: +$80
Corsair MP500 240GB: +$27

Here, we do see the Apple tax taking hold again. They're charging +$300 for upgrades worth only a bit more than $100.

So overall, I'd say the Mini, in its base form, is a fair deal. It's the upgrades (some, like the SSD, are practically required) that kill.
 

WANg

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That's because they aren't using nice NVME drives in those laptops... Those are PM953 TLC drives and the 256GB versions max at about that low on writes... Throw in a PM983 and those laptops will match or exceed the macbook, which can't upgrade it's nvme. I never order my laptop with nvme because they put the lowest end drives in them. Especially when you can get PM983's for so cheap.
Eh, on my XPS15 9570 I am already hitting those to those numbers. Of course, I don't think the tests done by LaptopMag is all that rigorous nor are their methodologies all that clear (the fact that they are reviewing CrystalDiskMark versus BlackMagic Disk Speed Test is already problematic).

Oh yeah, where are you getting your PM983s cheap? I don't see them on eBay or the usual retail sites for them, and even if I do, a 1TB model is quoting at around 500 USD.

 
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WANg

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Well, yeah, that was one of the points I was trying to make, and that if you considered the Mini's strengths relative to the NUC the cost wasn't so bad.

Heck, I have some free time, let's do something more comparable to the base Mini in mITX. The closest I could get (just off NewEgg, not going to scour the entire Internet for pricing):

Intel i3-8100: $130
(same CPU as the Mini.)

ASRock Z390 PHANTOM GAMING-ITX/AC: $180
(Only mITX mainboard I could find that has TB3 and USB 3.1 gen2.)

Corsair Vengeance LPX 8GB (2 x 4GB): $78
(Matches the Mini's DDR4-2666.)

Corsair Force MP500 120GB: $100
(Same as before.)

SilverStone SST-FTZ01S-E: $126
(About the only mITX case I see that approximates the Mini's size, style, and materials.)

Corsair SF450 450W: $86
(Least expensive gold or better SFX unit I could find.)

Windows 10 Home: $99

Total: $799 (I swear I didn't plan that.)

I'm surprised, I really thought the mITX would be a better deal. And it's still missing some of the Mini's functionality, such as multiple TB3 ports and DisplayPort 1.4. Though you do get better audio options and expandability (e.g., PCIe slot, +1 m.2, SATA ports).

There are some things you can do to knock that price down if you're willing to compromise. The Fractal Node 202/PSU combo knocks ~$80 off for a steel (but still decent) case and less efficient PSU. A mainboard without TB3, USB 3.1 g2, and/or other features can reduce things from ~$0-50+. Dropping the SSD to TLC NAND and/or SATA can substantially reduce the cost. But if you do all that, you're back to comparing Apples and oranges.

To compare with the 6-core Mini ($1099), substitute the following for the above components:
Intel i5-8500: +$80
Corsair MP500 240GB: +$27

Here, we do see the Apple tax taking hold again. They're charging +$300 for upgrades worth only a bit more than $100.

So overall, I'd say the Mini, in its base form, is a fair deal. It's the upgrades (some, like the SSD, are practically required) that kill.
Well, for the Mac Mini you can claw back some savings on the RAM, and if TB3 support is needed, that's a $150 PCIe card from Sonnet on the uITX making it almost even price-wise. It's an odd value-prop for the home user - it's not a good deal, but it's not as terrible as some will make it out to be.

As a business user I have no problems signing a large purchase order for a pallet of them for work (Core i5/256GB SSD minimum though). For a home user? Hmmm, unless I have a machine I can trade in that will help offset it, not for my own cash monies. That being said, I would wait for the MacMini teardown from iFixit first, as I want to see if there are any implied pain points.

Who knows, maybe the new MacMini will trigger the release of better small machines... I would like to see something bigger than a NUC, with more I/O options, on an aluminum chassis, and a Ryzen 5 inside. Something...like a more modern t730 thin client.